Summary
I am currently reworking monster AI. As you are all more experienced in playing DL than me I'm asking for your help!
Currently most game enemies are pretty dumb. They dont use their abilities like they should, retreat when they should attack, or stand around doing nothing.
What can you do to help?
Post your insights on monster AI, examples of dumb monster-actions, how your worst nightmare AI would look. Help me create the coolest AI system on any mud Wheee!
Example:
Cleric mobiles could heal allies, buff themselves and allies up when outside of combat, stay at a distance of hard-hitting targets or moving up close to wimpy ones.
Spiders, instead of attacking head on, could use their climbing abilities could stay out of reach of players, try to spittle them to the ground, run away from fire, etc.
Large groups of mobiles should team up and pile-up on a player, immobilizing them.
i didnt see celeborns post - im removing my old one and placing it here
Specifically Monster AI:
what are the shortcomings of the current mobile AI
what ways are mobiles easily manipulated?
(how can mobiles be tricked into doing something, everytime, that puts them at a disadvantage)
And - if you wish, include your thoughts on making the monsters smarter.
Current AI summary -
All mobiles in areas like worldmap or the epic dungeons can track an opponent.
All mobiles have an ability to smell their prey, even if you are invisible, and they can't see you, they know you are in the room with them, they just can't do anything about it.
Depending on the flags a builder gives a mob, they can retreat or advance towards/away from a player during a fight.
All mobiles will throw random potions at you, or drink the potions themselves if they are equipped with potions.
All mobiles with the proper flag can bandage their wounds during a fight.
- I'll start it off
Some monsters that don't have range spells or attacks have the ability to run away in combat creating a distance between them and an attacker. The attacker rarely gets damaged in this time, making the retreating thing nothing more than a nuisance. --- This in itself is not bad, cuz hey, it's ok for mobs to be a pain to kill, but we should ensure they have the ability to do ranged attacks to make the players lives harder.
I would like to see mobiles with the ability to sense themselves getting hurt, and when are x percent damaged, will use some new spell not yet installed like icestorm, freezing their opponents for x seconds, retreat to a distance where normal meleers cannot attack them, (mages still could with appropriate range spells, or players with bows) and then heal themselves. This would not be instantaneous, but rather just long enough to do while the attacking players are incapacitated.
All epic monsters should be aggro if they are not already.
All epic monsters should be able to hear attacking, just as if you say something 1 room away, the aggro mobile will enter your room and attack. They should also do this when another mobile talks or is fighting. (if they do not do this already)
I would like to see a flag which can be used for higher level creatures to dispel negative spell effects on them - bane, slow, curse, etc
Please note: when posting your ideas, don't hold back because you think it will be too hard to fight. The combat will always be made to be fair, if i have to modify every mobile in the game to do it, i have no problem with that.
Base your ideas on what would be cool, or 'what should be' - especially in the interests of making a fight fair and exciting. There will always be dumb monsters, and smart monsters.
I'd like to see mobs that can use prism magic to its full extent, whether for buffs or offense, or both.
I'd like to see the smarter mobs target the weaker body parts. (Currently that would be the head, I don't know what it would be after your changes.)
I don't think it would be too much of a stretch if smarter mobs (not all, just the smart ones) knew which potions were 'good' and which were 'bad' so to know which to throw and which to quaff.
I would want to see all 'damage progs' demolished. I hate them, I think they detract from the experience. IE, a mob can do it, why can't I? Oh, because it's 'special' or 'super'...Lame excuse. I'm not saying mobiles shouldnt be able to things that players can't, but they should be able to do it in a fashion that fits in with the rest of the combat system. Like Lantana's 'cleave' attack could be replaced with some special attack that gave her +2000 damage roll for one attack only and she can use it once every 15 seconds or something. Who knows? It doesnt even have to be something the player can defend against, it could pass through all player defenses...I just want it to be something that fits in with the rest of the game.
The code that decides which player the mobile attacks could use some updates. I'm not sure exactly how they work currently, but it's screwy. For example, when I was levelling some of my guys in groups before epics, I would notice that mobs would always go for me. As an experiment, I set my range at 150 or so...and SURPRISE! The mobs from that point onward WOULD NOT ATTACK ANYBODY. They wouldnt advance on me or switch targets to anybody else in the group. I was the perfect tank...Not good.
My idea of the ultimate uber scary mob would be one that self buffed itself up a ton, wore incredibly nice player level eq (that distintegrated when it died or disarmed or whatever, to prevent players from getting it), would be very cautious, retreating and healing when nesceserry and then casting a nice arrow or 3 while doing so, keeping distance. It would also try to debuff players, and watch for player buffs ran out. It could detect exactly when an antimagic buff ran out for example and try to debuff the player at exactly that moment.
Another thing I would like to mention, I would love to see the mob 'limbs' fixed...IE fish without legs and arms...Although this doesnt really have to do with their intelligence I suppose.
here's my thoughts on program replacement/modification
yes, damage programs are not always realistic, i wouldn't mind replacing them, the main reason why they exist, is because currently, a mobile without programs has 0 chance to hold off a player for more than a minute. with the programs, the mobile has a 2 percent chance
I would like to see smart mobs function like a player versus player fight (which will be much fairer after the patch)
things i'd like to see added -->
elemental damage added to arrows
fire arrows doing fire damage
ice arrows doing ice damage
note: this would be an entire 'quiver' of the type of arrow
Next --> adding modules
using an idea like Quest Nugget, having a menu of pre-defined AI subroutines which can be added or removed from an 'addon / module' the addon would function like a flag. mset mobile addon 0001
where addon #0001 would be a list of things the mobile might do during a fight - example:
#0001
1) heal when low in health
2) flee when the battle looks grim
3) target lowest level players in group
4) use self buffs when a fight starts
5) use fire breath spells randomly
6) target limbs which an opponent relies on
(- mages = heads, warriors = arms, hands)
7) debuff a player based on their fighting style
(if being hit with spells - confusion, foolishness, or
attacks to disrupt spellcasting) you get the idea
This would effectively replace all damage programs, and most fight programs, and most current flags from a mobile.
in some cases current style fight programs would still be useful, like when using a quest mobile - you would want it to say something specific, and then attack with specific fighting styles.
1) In general, mobiles should discourage an absolute-cookie-cutter approach of players. If each mobile can be killed the same way, the game becomes dull, favoring a certain class/race combo of players.
2) AI should provide fun and a bit of challange to the game, but not too much challange! You could theoretically take AI far, making monsters uber kill machines. but that is not what you want. Combat with a simple imp would take ten minutes to complete, with a high chance of death on the Hero's part. Good for bosses, not so for the common monsters. So, fun AI, not uber AI.
(There are, ofcourse, exceptions for the above. Certain players excell far above the basic player in skill, and you should challange them accordingly, with tough AI mobiles. )
3) You should put a mobiles unique abilities and defenses to good use. I agree a monster shouldn't have powers that circumvent normal armor/fortitude/reflex/etc saves, but monster races may be different from players. They may have their own innate powers and spells.
4) Fair play. Monsters cannot use abilities they logically lack. they cannot blast you with a distort when they are pure warrior, etc).
5) They cannot know things, or notice things, that they should be unaware of. They should see a cleric cast healing spells before they can identify them as a cleric.
Now, awhile back i know Celeborn was working on mobs ducking behind furniture, and snowballs hitting objects in the room rather than the player if they were concealed, but i think it was either removed, or never ended up working.
My proposal might be to say - ok on worldmap, when in a forest sector, mob can duck behind a tree.
For epic dungeons, depending on the dungeon, mobs could duck behind objects which are unique to the dungeon (example in crypts - statues, sarcophasgus', loose blocks of stone...)
in dragon caves - boulders, etc
mobs could be like fighting, then
mobile retreats
mobile runs behind a boulder
this act could prevent mages from casting spells, because we could say mobile needs to be in line of sight when someone casts something at them
then of course, concealed, partially conealed, etc when doing a first attack (non rogue) a backstab would always remove concealment, as the player would be right behind them.
So a mob that is using a chest or pile of bones for concealment shoots arrows at me while I am in the open? Meanwhile my arrows hit the pile of bones more often then not? Honestly, that could add a lot to ranged combat and such, but I believe a player should be able to counter.
I agree, same thing with mages. They arent too handy in epics anyway cuz spells dont damage enough (granted that will be changed after the patch) but i think a magic missile effect would need to be added to a couple spells like arrow. They target the closest mob and if theres only one it they act like heat-seaking missiles. This wouldnt need to be added to the powerful spells like breath.
If concealment is implemented, I would like to see players be able to use it to a certain extent. Obviously, classes like rogue and ranger would be more effective at concealing themselves (rogues could even hide and backstab maybe?). If fully concealed, I think a mob should come out if they have a decent amount of health, in order to either look for you or check if the coast is clear.
There should be abilities that draw a mob out of concealment too. A warrior may launch himself over a barrier to attack a mob on the other side; a rogue may slowly sneak around to the other side and try to attack (low chance of hitting, as a mob would see you if you are not hidden); casters may have either an astral projection spell, which would confuse the mob to make you think you are behind it, hence coming out into the open, or a short range astral walk spell that would let them get behind the mob.
Bows, and in my opinion only bows, should be able to be aimed in an arch over the concealment to hit a mob, if you have a high enough bow skill, of course this would be a hard to hit shoot. This could be very effective if elemental arrows are added in; if there are a few mobs concealed in a trench or something, a ranger may use flaming arrows to try to smoke them out.
The thing I don't like about the concealment thing is the idea of drawn out battle. Sure, you can say things are easy now, blah blah blah, it used to be so much harder you guys have it easy, blah blah blah...My idea of smarter mobs isn't ones that simply draw out the battle pointlessly, like retreating from me endlessly. The smarter you make the 'average' mobile, the longer each battle will take, and the more you will have to up experience to make up for it (unless you want epics to be much slower, but after the patch and further tweaking they should be pretty okay).
The main point I am trying to make, is that I don't want mobile intelligence to go in such a direction where a challenge is merely taking longer to kill a mob. That's not a challenge. That's just a bit of a delay, and therefore serves no real purpose. If the mob wants to RUN from the player, make it RUN, not retreat...Retreating instead of running would be counter-productive to the mobs's life.
A challenge is when something is difficult to the extent that it forces you to use tactics that you wouldn't normally use, be more careful, or just generally cause you to think more. NOT delaying you for 20 seconds.
Thats actually a very good point, I think a lot of people lose sight of that.
Epics for me, its sort of a conflict between two things: an interesting epic experience (fun) vs getting levels fast. Thats why most ppl really dont want it *hard* cuz they want to level fast but right now im so bored after getting two elevels that i cant stand continuing. So im all for more of a challenge but not to a degree where every spider becomes a Hundred Years war so to speak. So i suggest epic mobs have some level of difficulty just so theyre a challenge and they cast the right spells and not cause themselves to lose balance and stuff. But: for the real complex battles with hiding and all the cool ideas ppl have come up with, we use them for the super-mobs. With increased difficulty it might have to be made more worth it, but thats how i feel the "intelligence" should be allocated so to speak.
My opinion is that normal mobs should be left how they are: they're just bags of xp to be harvested, and you have to kill craploads of them. If you want a mob to be a challenge and take forever to kill, then you need to level from killing a handfull of them. Supermobs, on the other hand, can be given excellent AI scripts to make fights with them truly epic battles. Go all out with them, they're SUPPOSED to require long and hard battles, with a real chance of defeat.
I'm not saying every single mob is going to be annoying to kill
I AM saying i would like to have the option of placing AI enchancements on monsters which should have it.
You base your ideas on the current combat system, stop it
Like i said in my original post, i will adjust the monsters as necessary, the fight does not need to be longer per say, but it would be nice if the monsters /did something/ rather than stand there and wait for death.
If i have to chop the health or ac in half for a thousand mobiles to keep them fun, so be it.
I say again, the purpose of this discussion is for AI enchancements, post your ideas on what you think would be a cool thing for a monster to do during a fight. Let me worry about the other stuff.
And no, "they're just bags of xp to be harvested" is incorrect, you may have the 'grinding' mentality for reasons which are the fault of the builders, but that will change.
Maybe you gave the wrong impression by using epics as an example then. But yes, even if you DIDNT mean that, I still feel that the post was important just so everybody is on the same page.
Base my opinions on the current combat system? O.o...I have been on the test port every day since it went public. I know how it works over there. And I don't think its going to get any more significant changes after that, seeing how Cele wants to concentrate on PvB, not spend another month rewriting the DL combat system (although I could be wrong), so I can assume you were accusing me of not knowing how the patch was going to affect things. Believe me, I do.
You say again? Celeborn was telling us to post our insights. I was doing just that. And no, we aren't children here, simply to just 'not worry about' the grown up things, or whatever you might be implying. You either want our input or you don't, theres no middle ground, Isabelle. Although I somewhat agree with you on Torrim's point.
i am not talking about test port, i see no mention of test port, it was not implied.
i am asking that you try to not worry about how the current fighting is, i am asking that people post things that would be cool in a fight.
thats all
i said nothing about calling you a child, it was not implied, what was implied was that we could do one thing at a time, and start with making things exciting, and then worry about whatever issues there might be later.
improved magic system, to go along with the fight system.. As of current once you get to a certain level, you can't hurt creatures with spells anymore, and rely on pure damage, with some mage type characters this is an unwinning battle, because of lack of resources, and the such.
Why, if you can increase your level, and as you do that have the MR of creatures increase, disable the ability to hit monsters with magic. If you're going to do that, just make all NPCs past e400 or whatever it was, void type characters, because otherwise, shouldnt we have a way to counter-act their high Mr or have at least a slight chance to hit them (instead of like a 1/500 chance with rolls).
and as a reply to some of the posts up there, i agree. For the increased difficulty, It would only be fair that it be more rewarding. Some of us might just think of the prolonged battleing as a nuisence. Increased experience, or increased gold might be a good idea...
Wouldnt it be logical, when you put a certain amount of effort into a fight, you don't want to get diddily squat for the outcome. 15 experience, 10 gold!!! WOOHOO!!! know what i mean?
---If I'm using a bow, would back up out of range, or pick up rocks to throw at me, and when I advance to get back in range, would charge forward to catch me while I'm advancing. Or shoot a bow/range weapon of its own.
---If there are other mobs in the area that might give a crap, would call for assistance from other mobs. (Could make places like Warlock Keep far more interesting!)
---Would have a "memory", almost like the Guards in tarsonis used to for killing guards. If you constantly walked into Warlock Keep and Harvested the poor blighters, eventually word would spread amongst them of you, and instead of being peaceable/uncaring of your presence, they'd attack you on sight or run away on sight, depending on the mob.
Ex: Keep Guards would attack you on sight, where-as gnolls would see you and pee their chaps.
---Would target body parts as a strategy. If a player is using a weapon, target the hands. If player is casting a spell, go for the head. (or cast a silence spell, new spell Idea!)
---If they were janitor type mobs, collecting crap off the ground, they'd retreat and throw their trash at me.
---Would heal themselves if clerical, blast me with distort/breath if mage-ical. Would use circle on me if thief-ical. Spin if warrior-ical. Multi-strike if ranger-ical. Use class specific skills if/when it applies.
---Would use group tactics if more than one. Much like wolves will harass a moose by nipping at its heels then dart back; a gnoll pack might have one attack and then retreat, and then another attack and retreat. and when I charge at one, the other attacks me. Or flat out overpower me, for instance a collossal dragon is gonna have tons of weight, it should stand to reason that it can bowl me over and knock me around.
---Would try and surprise me! for instance, stalking! An aggro mob might flee from me when I walk into the room, but only to go into some uber "MOB stealth mode" and attack me later when I'm engaged in a fight, or if I go to sleep or something, or if he sees I'm bleeding.
---Would also be too strong to be hurt by weapons of poor quality I.e Might need something of mitrill quality or better to even hurt it.
---Would be able to gain health back by eating things. Including its fallen comrades. (An Otyugh, capable of eating anything, would be a fiercesome foe indeed if it had a large supply of food nearby).
---Would be able to summon other monsters if it was a certain type (for instance if I fought An Angel, it might summon a small band of Templars to fight me.
---Would help others in the MOBs group. Be it rescueing them from a player, healing the mob, regening it. Like players will do.
E.g A Master WereWolf has been attacked by Jaasiel and Jhereko. He summons a small pack (1-4) of dire wolves. One of the dire wolves gets his head cut off by jhereko. The Master WereWolf casts regenerate on Dire wolf! The master WereWolf casts heal on Dire wolf!
That's all I can think of for now, I will post more as it comes to me.
Permanently damage/destroy my eq., depending on quality of metal. Bronze would be easy to destroy. Iron would be harder, emeralite would be practically impossible. For instance if I fought a gelatinous cube with a bronze sword, the sword would disintegrate after two- three successful attacks. Where-as an emeralite sword against the same cube could hit the thing till the cows came home and still look shiny!
With the price paid for custom gear, and the fact that 'crowned' gear can't be replaced, thats a very bad idea. Normal damage already happens to gear. Perment damage or 'scrapping' would cause a lot of problems and complaints.
I was thinking it would be scary/interesting if mobs would attack cetain races/classes, if the mob is high enough lvl to stand a chance, e.g. Drows attack good races or classes, e.g. pixie, elf, gnome, cleric, paladin. Mobs would accept races/classes/conditions that are like themselves, e.g. vapires accepting vampires
I think it'd make the game more interesting to have more eq scrapping. Like Death Traps used to, now it's just "ho hum, I died" I want the "HA! YOU DIED AND YOU LOSE YOUR STUFF!.....BIATCH!" back.
That would be very, very bad when players invest countless hours into obtaining powerful crafted eq.
For example, let's say Lingolas died under that code. He would lose an emeralite cuirass, an emeralite helmet, two jade rings, two emeralite double axes, two diamond anklets, and other similarly powerful and high-level equipment. Immediately after, Lingolas quits DL. The same thing then happens to other players, and they quit. Only newbies who didn't have anything good to lose are left. DL dies.
How can you justify ruining the results of hundreds of hours of work in a few seconds? Destroying cookie-cutter mob eq may be justifiable, but not crafted eq.
Does anyone remember why Angelus left? I seem to recall he DT'ed and lost all of his good gear. Shortly after that he re-equiped, and lost everything he had left in another DT. After that he quit.
Gear scrapping of any kind is purely evil. Mobs that scrap non-loyal weapons are the reason I don't like to explore too much in higher-level areas. Last thing I want is some mob disarming an e500 emeralite sword and sac'ing it. Coding like that is purely unfair. If we disarm a mob, its item drops into inventory, and we can't sacrifice it now can we?
Nope, I don't like the disarming and saccing thing either. But I think DT's should still scrap your shit. Angelus was an experienced player, he knew the areas and their dangers. Why do I think this? I think this because people get too fat and lazy when they don't have some serious element of danger in the game.
You also say this when your not running around with sentimental items and emeralite gear. All it takes is one accident with the old DT's and months of work are instantly gone.
Picture losing a complete set of Blue Diamond e500 exceptional gear? Picture losing a full suit of emeralite armor and weapons? Picture losing half a dozen quest items? Picture losing gear you enchanted at your 'crowning'?
It is a bad idea for a crafting world. Its a decent idea for a cookie-cutter world where everyone wears the same things. It also makes people fearful of exploring, and general adventure. Isn't losing several thousand epic exp bad enough a penalty without having to have complete loss of everything on the character?
If you really want a challenge, go play Permadeath void mage or something. Don't ruin the game for everyone else.
Vogar, would you please read what board this thread is on? THE IDEAS AND SUGGESTIONS BOARD.
I have lost sentimental EQ to DT's in this MUD. And yeah, it sucked that I lost it, and I complained, but guess what happened? I was able to move on. My only concern is that there's no real element of risk to this game if you don't play permadeath. Unless you feel that other people trying to be better at the game than you is a terrible risk. To me it's not.
When you're reading a fantasy/adventure/sci-fi book and you know the character will never die, and despite having all of this uber gear, he will almost never have to worry about losing it, it doesn't make the book very exciting does it? All the cliff-hangers and "suspense" moments are blown away by the fact that the character is never going to be in any serious danger.
Perhaps something could be done so that instead of scrapping all of your gear the DT only scraps one piece?
E.G- Due to the gruesome way in which you died "The Cosmic Belt" was damaged beyond repair.
Why not just make repairs cost a heck of a lot more? Hrm? Or require some of the base material to be repaired? Why does an item have to be permently destroyed? Would not taking 50 ingots of meteorite and 100k to repair it be better?
If you like purgings, I am sure Isabelle would be happy to eat an item for you each time you die. Or you could sac one yourself.
I fear that you might be suffering from intrinsic methane poisoning due to the conditions of your surroundings. It seems to be making you fly off into tantrums for no explicable reason.
No, that would not be better because you HAVE to fight to level, and there-for your equipment is going to become damaged, and a heck of a lot more money and base material price is far more than your avg player can afford. And people don't hit DT's nearly as much as people are fighting and leveling. DT's are avoidable. Equipment damage is not, unless you never fight/leave it sitting around. Perhaps a moderate amount of money for each.
Lets just drop this frank exchange of words on this thread. If you feel like continuing it you can post a new reply to the next idea I suggest.
---Avestifal
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