New Builders
Started by Avestifal on Sep 20, 2004 · 41 posts in thread
Avestifal (#1)
I would like there to be like, one or two new builders headed by a head builder who would go around DL fixing shizit up etc. I personally, would also like to nominate myself for this task. The builder, not head builder. I have some experience, I would like a chance to show what I can do, I've written lots of descs, and I feel that posting all my new desc's on the bug list are an insane bother, and if I could personally edit those desc's it'd be A) less work for the imms and B) I could go back through and correct any typos I missed on re-reads.
weems (#2)
AVESTIFAL FOR BUILDER!!!
Seriously. I agree completley. More builders certainly wouldnt hurt. And good ole Avestifal certainly seems willing enough.
Seriously. I agree completley. More builders certainly wouldnt hurt. And good ole Avestifal certainly seems willing enough.
Quintos (#3)
I also nominate Avestifal...cause hes the King Shit of the Universe
Kiasyn (#4)
GO AVESTIFAL!
Kariyana (#5)
Hey, didn't a discussion about this topic take place a while back where we all agreed on certain things with certain people that made it impossible for new builders to come up? And if I remember correctly, didn't you already apply to be a builder, Aves dear? I wouldn't mind building, already do on another MUD, and it would rock if the head builder would be Roje cause she rocks anyways....*cough*.
I already applied for Caretaker, and well, I'm still waiting
I already applied for Caretaker, and well, I'm still waiting
lingolas (#6)
there is a reason why we dont have many builders. the caretakers know what i'm speaking of.
Years ago we had a bunch of builders but Celeborn fired like 99% of them because of *****. I can't reveal it for security reasons.
Years ago we had a bunch of builders but Celeborn fired like 99% of them because of *****. I can't reveal it for security reasons.
Quintos (#7)
*Pops in, slips Lingolas a cyanide pill, and pops out* He revealed too much. And basically...I believe they cheated, and I could get more information if people want...I was never sworn to secrecy
weems (#8)
Impossible for new builders to come up? Thats the stupidest thing I have ever heard. I don't care if the past builders cheated or whatever, why would any of that apply to Avestifal?Kariyana wrote:Hey, didn't a discussion about this topic take place a while back where we all agreed on certain things with certain people that made it impossible for new builders to come up? And if I remember correctly, didn't you already apply to be a builder, Aves dear? I wouldn't mind building, already do on another MUD, and it would rock if the head builder would be Roje cause she rocks anyways....*cough*.
I already applied for Caretaker, and well, I'm still waiting
Isabelle (#9)
There will 'not' be builders as other muds have them, at this time, nor, in the near future.
No plans have been set aside for such builders. Building can be utilized by using the 'bug / typo' command ingame. That is the extent of a dark legacy builder. (Until such time as dragonfly is rebuilt)
No plans have been set aside for such builders. Building can be utilized by using the 'bug / typo' command ingame. That is the extent of a dark legacy builder. (Until such time as dragonfly is rebuilt)
weems (#10)
If I may inquire, why is it such a big deal to have a normal builder? Is the learning curve really huge or something?Isabelle wrote:There will 'not' be builders as other muds have them, at this time, nor, in the near future.
No plans have been set aside for such builders. Building can be utilized by using the 'bug / typo' command ingame. That is the extent of a dark legacy builder. (Until such time as dragonfly is rebuilt)
Zeraphin (#11)
Resources do not currently allow for a true BPORT (Building Port), and its generally not a good idea to have builders actively working on the normal game port.
Isabelle (#12)
its trust, i have none to give
we were screwed over already by cheating pieces of poo, so, i have taken it upon myself to be an intermediary, and take builders proposed changes, and insert them into the areas.
Perhaps one day, maybe, but currently, no.
I want the existing areas fixed first, then we can start with new ones, and consider builders.
we were screwed over already by cheating pieces of poo, so, i have taken it upon myself to be an intermediary, and take builders proposed changes, and insert them into the areas.
Perhaps one day, maybe, but currently, no.
I want the existing areas fixed first, then we can start with new ones, and consider builders.
Quintos (#13)
Isabelle, make me a level 65 builder, you know I'd never abuse my power 
weems (#14)
Sigh.
Well, I guess thats that.
But seriously Isabelle, if you don't trust *AVESTIFAL*, who CAN you trust?
Nobody I guess. That was probably your point.
Well, I guess thats that.
But seriously Isabelle, if you don't trust *AVESTIFAL*, who CAN you trust?
Nobody I guess. That was probably your point.
Kariyana (#15)
I thought the whole reason for applying through a caretaker with the credentials that are listed was to help get rid of any doubt that someone would have in hiring builders.
So you're basically restricting people who have outstanding build records, shown their potential (actually some are over-experienced), because of past instances? What about trial periods? And I'm sure that by people submitting other places they've built on, with references, plus with a watch file on the person, that doubt was removed.
While the current system is ok, there's no credit given to the contributors other than a piece of eq that people who don't know the whole deal will bitch, gripe and complain. And we all know how much people dislike that on a daily basis.
Maybe a builder code needs to be installed to curb cheating, use of unnecessary commands, etc....and it's out there. I know, I built on one for -four- years. Oh well, I guess offering up areas as a way to show potential is out of the question too.
So you're basically restricting people who have outstanding build records, shown their potential (actually some are over-experienced), because of past instances? What about trial periods? And I'm sure that by people submitting other places they've built on, with references, plus with a watch file on the person, that doubt was removed.
While the current system is ok, there's no credit given to the contributors other than a piece of eq that people who don't know the whole deal will bitch, gripe and complain. And we all know how much people dislike that on a daily basis.
Maybe a builder code needs to be installed to curb cheating, use of unnecessary commands, etc....and it's out there. I know, I built on one for -four- years. Oh well, I guess offering up areas as a way to show potential is out of the question too.
Isabelle (#16)
a builder and a caretaker are two different people
i do not need builders to make new areas for me right now, i need help fixing the ones we have, and they have been doing that.
As for rewards for building, those who spend 'alot' of time on an area do get their name displayed as one of the authors, either in the authorname section, or somewhere in the area itself.
Ask Gideon
those who want to build, can, the only difference is that they can't make the items directly themselves.
i do not need builders to make new areas for me right now, i need help fixing the ones we have, and they have been doing that.
As for rewards for building, those who spend 'alot' of time on an area do get their name displayed as one of the authors, either in the authorname section, or somewhere in the area itself.
Ask Gideon
those who want to build, can, the only difference is that they can't make the items directly themselves.
Kariyana (#17)
All in an effort to try to understand the logic behind this entire post, I'm going to post whatever viewpoints I have concerning the subject. Take this as you wish.
If I understand correctly, being a Caretaker is basically the admin side and being a builder is the building side. May I be wrong in this? From past experience, builders have little to do with the daily activities and decisions that are made, where the Caretakers are left up to doing just that. Administration on a MUD where there's two separate unities should be left up to the people specializing in admin, while the areas and those items within the areas should be left up to builders. If not, then what's the purpose of being a builder?
"As for rewards for building, those who spend 'alot' of time on an area do get their name displayed as one of the authors, either in the authorname section, or somewhere in the area itself."
What constitutes alot? From what I saw, the only credit I received in redoing portions of Highmoon was a SDT. And I partnered up with Gideon to do all the room descriptions, even the ones inside the Gauntlet area, where I had to wait on someone to help me get through because the mobiles were a little too tough for me to properly make a room description without worrying that I was going to get cremated. Ooooh. So when people ask me where I got the tattoo, and I say 'helping out with Highmoon', they're just like 'eh' and shrug. When it comes to being part of something that others are going to see, they will never know whose responsible for an area unless there's constant visual proof (ie: names in the author area, name in an extra item description, etc). And I believe that's all people really want in being a builder. To be able to put an area out there, or make changes in an area, and have actual credit given to them that's visible for others to recognize. So you mean to tell me that you're going to put the names of every single person who worked on a specific area in the author list? The last I checked, the buffer for such a command was limited due to the line size.
I think the people expressing interest in building know the difference between psuedo-building and being an actual builder. And 9 times out of 10, all they want to do is build. The good ones follow the rules, do what they're asked to do, and never really expect anything more than their name and their work to be shown to the MUD. This is why people take their own areas when they leave and either use them on another MUD or submit them to Shadowlands for free distribution.
"i do not need builders to make new areas for me right now, i need help fixing the ones we have, and they have been doing that."
No one is saying they want to put out a totally new area. I think most of the people doing the fixes now feel restricted, unable to do stuff with one single command. They'd rather have the ability to make changes without a middle-man party to be there and knit-pick at them for whatever reason. I know that head builders will do this, I've been one, but when a mortal is badgered by an immortal for something the immortal could have done in the first place, but felt too busy to do so themselves, it makes people not want to build. All these people want to do is to help make the areas out there better in other ways than using one or two commands. And they can't even improve anything more than a room at that rate. All because there's no trust where there should be.
All I, and most of the people posting on this website who can't do anything more than submit new descriptions via a command that someone else controls before implementation, would like to see is people up there who can devote their time to just building. With the ability to do so. And without someone thinking they're going to cheat and steal whatever they can. You can't dwell on the past when you have the ability to fix it now and control the future. Like I said, take what I put here as you wish, but it's how I and probably 95% of the people who've asked to be a part of the staff to build feel.
It's not hard to be able to install a safety measure to ensure that things that happened in the past don't happen again. And I bet you that your bug list, where typos and broken items and broken programs and such are listed, would decrease dramatically. All it takes is some work. But I'm probably just blowing hot, educated air...
If I understand correctly, being a Caretaker is basically the admin side and being a builder is the building side. May I be wrong in this? From past experience, builders have little to do with the daily activities and decisions that are made, where the Caretakers are left up to doing just that. Administration on a MUD where there's two separate unities should be left up to the people specializing in admin, while the areas and those items within the areas should be left up to builders. If not, then what's the purpose of being a builder?
"As for rewards for building, those who spend 'alot' of time on an area do get their name displayed as one of the authors, either in the authorname section, or somewhere in the area itself."
What constitutes alot? From what I saw, the only credit I received in redoing portions of Highmoon was a SDT. And I partnered up with Gideon to do all the room descriptions, even the ones inside the Gauntlet area, where I had to wait on someone to help me get through because the mobiles were a little too tough for me to properly make a room description without worrying that I was going to get cremated. Ooooh. So when people ask me where I got the tattoo, and I say 'helping out with Highmoon', they're just like 'eh' and shrug. When it comes to being part of something that others are going to see, they will never know whose responsible for an area unless there's constant visual proof (ie: names in the author area, name in an extra item description, etc). And I believe that's all people really want in being a builder. To be able to put an area out there, or make changes in an area, and have actual credit given to them that's visible for others to recognize. So you mean to tell me that you're going to put the names of every single person who worked on a specific area in the author list? The last I checked, the buffer for such a command was limited due to the line size.
I think the people expressing interest in building know the difference between psuedo-building and being an actual builder. And 9 times out of 10, all they want to do is build. The good ones follow the rules, do what they're asked to do, and never really expect anything more than their name and their work to be shown to the MUD. This is why people take their own areas when they leave and either use them on another MUD or submit them to Shadowlands for free distribution.
"i do not need builders to make new areas for me right now, i need help fixing the ones we have, and they have been doing that."
No one is saying they want to put out a totally new area. I think most of the people doing the fixes now feel restricted, unable to do stuff with one single command. They'd rather have the ability to make changes without a middle-man party to be there and knit-pick at them for whatever reason. I know that head builders will do this, I've been one, but when a mortal is badgered by an immortal for something the immortal could have done in the first place, but felt too busy to do so themselves, it makes people not want to build. All these people want to do is to help make the areas out there better in other ways than using one or two commands. And they can't even improve anything more than a room at that rate. All because there's no trust where there should be.
All I, and most of the people posting on this website who can't do anything more than submit new descriptions via a command that someone else controls before implementation, would like to see is people up there who can devote their time to just building. With the ability to do so. And without someone thinking they're going to cheat and steal whatever they can. You can't dwell on the past when you have the ability to fix it now and control the future. Like I said, take what I put here as you wish, but it's how I and probably 95% of the people who've asked to be a part of the staff to build feel.
It's not hard to be able to install a safety measure to ensure that things that happened in the past don't happen again. And I bet you that your bug list, where typos and broken items and broken programs and such are listed, would decrease dramatically. All it takes is some work. But I'm probably just blowing hot, educated air...
Avestifal (#18)
I don't mean to sound greedy, despite the fact I probably do, but there are things I would like on top of my name on the credits list, like, when I put in a good amount of effort, sure you get my creative uh..."genius" and I get to say "whee! I wrote that!" But material rewards are good perks as well, it gives the builders a chance to personalize their characters a little bit more by giving more personality (no matter how noticed it is or isn't by the DL player base) to Dark Legacy's area's.
But I must admit, it is a feather in my cap to see my character's name on the authors list whenever I type "area" which I do far more often to silently pat myself on the back for my work. But other cool things like my tattoo are also accepted. It feels more like my work is valued. Now, if I were to be quote un quote "hired" as a builder, even with the current "just do it via bug list things" And have some kind of neat little marker saying I'm a Bona Fide Dark Legacy builder, I might be less desiring of a material reward as often. And I understand that there's a concern in the game because of cheating, but, to my knowledge, I've never knowingly cheated. And when I was concerned about the possibility I might, I went to an IMM with it, like when I discovered that you could zap w/ jewellry in the center of the arena, I went straight to issy and asked if it was ok that that could be done, I did not receive a negative response, and when I told her I was gonna use it, she said "ok."
Anyway, so yeah. Is there a way that a player could be given like, individual commands? Like maybe, room desc edit? So that I would be able to just go to a room and change the desc right there?
But I must admit, it is a feather in my cap to see my character's name on the authors list whenever I type "area" which I do far more often to silently pat myself on the back for my work. But other cool things like my tattoo are also accepted. It feels more like my work is valued. Now, if I were to be quote un quote "hired" as a builder, even with the current "just do it via bug list things" And have some kind of neat little marker saying I'm a Bona Fide Dark Legacy builder, I might be less desiring of a material reward as often. And I understand that there's a concern in the game because of cheating, but, to my knowledge, I've never knowingly cheated. And when I was concerned about the possibility I might, I went to an IMM with it, like when I discovered that you could zap w/ jewellry in the center of the arena, I went straight to issy and asked if it was ok that that could be done, I did not receive a negative response, and when I told her I was gonna use it, she said "ok."
Anyway, so yeah. Is there a way that a player could be given like, individual commands? Like maybe, room desc edit? So that I would be able to just go to a room and change the desc right there?
Avestifal (#19)
Also, now that I'm re-reading this thread:
Being that I'm not a very technically oriented person when it comes to mud files, is there some way where like, a mud file of some sort could be sent to a person so that they could like login as a builder when it's their comp running it but not be able to log in as a builder when it's the actual server, so that the person could alter and fix the given area, and then send it back fixed up and happy?
Being that I'm not a very technically oriented person when it comes to mud files, is there some way where like, a mud file of some sort could be sent to a person so that they could like login as a builder when it's their comp running it but not be able to log in as a builder when it's the actual server, so that the person could alter and fix the given area, and then send it back fixed up and happy?
Zeraphin (#20)
Here comes Zeraphin!
#1) Credit. I can understand where this one is coming from. But I'd like to point something out.. Even CARETAKERS don't really get any credit for all the work they've done. Sure, everyone knows we've done it, no one else could of, but the "thank you" part is very rare, and most of them time we don't bother to alter the author section of the area, leaving just the original builder's name. I've altered probably 75% of all the areas in DL in one way or another, yet my name is only on those areas I fully built, or redesigned at least 50% of. If you feel you've done sustainal work on an area, enough that you should be listed with the original author, we'll review that, just let us know. But fixing typo's isn't really enough if you ask me to be ranked with the guy (or gal) who originally spent hours upon hours building the original area.
#2) Room descriptions. This sorta ties in with the first part. Room descriptions are the single most boring and difficult task in area building. Its easy to build up a map of empty rooms, and its fairly easy to populate them with mobiles, which makes it even easier to make up some equipment for them. Then you get into the job of mud program, which I love. These breathe a lot of life into the mobiles and give them character. And then.. what are you left with? Room descriptions. Gah. GAH. If an area takes me 4 weeks to complete, chances are I finished everything but the room descriptions in the first week. So in that regards, I understand why people want credit for heavy work on room descriptions. Again, if you feel you've done enough work to warrant being named with the original author, speak up.
#3) Alternative to area list Author section: Add a new highscore board or list "buildlist" .. And list there the areas worked on by players and what they did, a kind of hall of fame for building. Comments?
#4) Sending Mud files to the player: If the Dragonfly offline builder were ready, this would be what you'd use to create all new areas. Once your area was completed, you would send us the area file (.are) and we'd install it into the game for testing and further tweaking. In the end though, it isn't a very good idea to take "live" areas, those already in use, alter them offline for a time, then overwrite the copy that's in the game. Its very hard to keep the two copies in sync, which can result in objects changing or being altered and no body understanding where the change necessarily came from. It is also impossible to send the game files to a player so he/she can run a "Mini-DL" on their PC to build with.. Its simply too big a risk, as you really can't log a program to only work on a specific person's PC.
#5) I will be working with Celeborn shortly to prepare a "BPORT" for online building, which will essentially be used ONLY for new areas. No altering existing ones, the possiblity of them getting out of sync once again being the reason. On the BPORT you'd be a true builder with all the commands available, no chance of cheating (Your character can't be affected), and no whiny players bothering you Your name goes in the author field, whee.
PS: I love the forums. One post rather than five individual notes on a noteboard.
#1) Credit. I can understand where this one is coming from. But I'd like to point something out.. Even CARETAKERS don't really get any credit for all the work they've done. Sure, everyone knows we've done it, no one else could of, but the "thank you" part is very rare, and most of them time we don't bother to alter the author section of the area, leaving just the original builder's name. I've altered probably 75% of all the areas in DL in one way or another, yet my name is only on those areas I fully built, or redesigned at least 50% of. If you feel you've done sustainal work on an area, enough that you should be listed with the original author, we'll review that, just let us know. But fixing typo's isn't really enough if you ask me to be ranked with the guy (or gal) who originally spent hours upon hours building the original area.
#2) Room descriptions. This sorta ties in with the first part. Room descriptions are the single most boring and difficult task in area building. Its easy to build up a map of empty rooms, and its fairly easy to populate them with mobiles, which makes it even easier to make up some equipment for them. Then you get into the job of mud program, which I love. These breathe a lot of life into the mobiles and give them character. And then.. what are you left with? Room descriptions. Gah. GAH. If an area takes me 4 weeks to complete, chances are I finished everything but the room descriptions in the first week. So in that regards, I understand why people want credit for heavy work on room descriptions. Again, if you feel you've done enough work to warrant being named with the original author, speak up.
#3) Alternative to area list Author section: Add a new highscore board or list "buildlist" .. And list there the areas worked on by players and what they did, a kind of hall of fame for building. Comments?
#4) Sending Mud files to the player: If the Dragonfly offline builder were ready, this would be what you'd use to create all new areas. Once your area was completed, you would send us the area file (.are) and we'd install it into the game for testing and further tweaking. In the end though, it isn't a very good idea to take "live" areas, those already in use, alter them offline for a time, then overwrite the copy that's in the game. Its very hard to keep the two copies in sync, which can result in objects changing or being altered and no body understanding where the change necessarily came from. It is also impossible to send the game files to a player so he/she can run a "Mini-DL" on their PC to build with.. Its simply too big a risk, as you really can't log a program to only work on a specific person's PC.
#5) I will be working with Celeborn shortly to prepare a "BPORT" for online building, which will essentially be used ONLY for new areas. No altering existing ones, the possiblity of them getting out of sync once again being the reason. On the BPORT you'd be a true builder with all the commands available, no chance of cheating (Your character can't be affected), and no whiny players bothering you
Your name goes in the author field, whee.PS: I love the forums. One post rather than five individual notes on a noteboard.
Avestifal (#21)
#1 I almost wrote a rant how I spend hours and hours writing room descriptions, but you mentioned it so you saved me some time .
#2 I've thanked before, but it got removed like, 5 mins after I posted it, so I didn't know if there was much appreciation for it or not so I figured that the fact I'm not complaining 24/7 would have to stand as my thank you
#3 I agree with some kind of "High Builder" list thingie, but what about some kind of other rewards? Like perhaps "Character Customization" points or favors? Like with my Character Gideon, for working Highmoon I requested a tattoo called the mark of Jabesh to fit in w/ my RP. (i.e a renamed tatt)
Customization points would help diversify up the char's a bit.
#4 Do y'all still have my builder application for when dragonfly is all happy-time again?
. #2 I've thanked before, but it got removed like, 5 mins after I posted it, so I didn't know if there was much appreciation for it or not so I figured that the fact I'm not complaining 24/7 would have to stand as my thank you
#3 I agree with some kind of "High Builder" list thingie, but what about some kind of other rewards? Like perhaps "Character Customization" points or favors? Like with my Character Gideon, for working Highmoon I requested a tattoo called the mark of Jabesh to fit in w/ my RP. (i.e a renamed tatt)
Customization points would help diversify up the char's a bit.
#4 Do y'all still have my builder application for when dragonfly is all happy-time again?
Zeraphin (#22)
If you posted your appreciation to TSQ, unfortunately, it probably was removed. We have to try very hard to keep the TSQ noteboard fairly short and managable, which means a LOT of notes end up removed :/
Once again, forums rock. No removing stuff because "note list" is too long or the board is full.
Also: I believe someone asked "Do you still have my application?" ... I didn't check for yours specificly, but we have moved and are storing builder applications in a Caretaker only area of the forums, so they're not going to be lost.
Once again, forums rock. No removing stuff because "note list" is too long or the board is full.
Also: I believe someone asked "Do you still have my application?" ... I didn't check for yours specificly, but we have moved and are storing builder applications in a Caretaker only area of the forums, so they're not going to be lost.
Avestifal (#23)
yay!
Kariyana (#24)
In an attempt to reply with a huge headache, I'll try to be brief, on-topic and to the point.
Thank you Zeraphin for your response and more importantly, for putting up with the peons that tick us off every day and working your ass off to help make the areas and items within the MUD better
I've never seen Dragonfly, the only offline builder I've been exposed to is ORB, and even then I can't use that to build areas. It's impossible to put any real-time interaction on it like you can online while the MUD is up and running. I'm sure you can download your own copy of code, build an area there, then test it out before re-downloading the .are file and submitting it elsewhere. But since Jade code isn't used in ORB, I'll keep an eye out for Dragonfly.
I have to agree with Avestifal on the character customization aspect that could be used as a reward for builders. And as far as builder apps go, what about Caretaker apps?
Thank you Zeraphin for your response and more importantly, for putting up with the peons that tick us off every day and working your ass off to help make the areas and items within the MUD better
I've never seen Dragonfly, the only offline builder I've been exposed to is ORB, and even then I can't use that to build areas. It's impossible to put any real-time interaction on it like you can online while the MUD is up and running. I'm sure you can download your own copy of code, build an area there, then test it out before re-downloading the .are file and submitting it elsewhere. But since Jade code isn't used in ORB, I'll keep an eye out for Dragonfly.
I have to agree with Avestifal on the character customization aspect that could be used as a reward for builders. And as far as builder apps go, what about Caretaker apps?
Zeraphin (#25)
Dragonfly is similar to ORB, but far far far more advanced. You also won't be able to find it, because it was custom coded by Celeborn for use with DL. It was tested as a beta for a while but got pushed to the back burner, but had some really awesome features.
Caretaker applications are being stored as well.
As for caretaker customization.. Well, the fact of the matter is, I'm not sure about how to go forward. Technically, you shouldn't get anything but recognition for your work as the author. If you got rewards for building, I could technically go and say, well I've put 3+ years into the game, I'm going to give my character a special sword and auto-level to E400 or something.
The fact is, caretakers aren't allowed to customize their characters or give them anything special (And I need to hear about it if you honestly believe they have, or have evidence), and full-time builders should probably be held to the same standard.
You may or may not know, its been so long since I played, but I have a Tri-Avatar, probably the 5th character ever created and the first ever Cleric, epic level 2, with all mobile equipment ;P Completely done without caretaker help back in the days when I still had time to play.
Caretaker applications are being stored as well.
As for caretaker customization.. Well, the fact of the matter is, I'm not sure about how to go forward. Technically, you shouldn't get anything but recognition for your work as the author. If you got rewards for building, I could technically go and say, well I've put 3+ years into the game, I'm going to give my character a special sword and auto-level to E400 or something.
The fact is, caretakers aren't allowed to customize their characters or give them anything special (And I need to hear about it if you honestly believe they have, or have evidence), and full-time builders should probably be held to the same standard.
You may or may not know, its been so long since I played, but I have a Tri-Avatar, probably the 5th character ever created and the first ever Cleric, epic level 2, with all mobile equipment ;P Completely done without caretaker help back in the days when I still had time to play.
Avestifal (#26)
Character Customization, not caretaker customization
And I simply meant that if there aren't going to be any hirings for builders, players should get something for their time. And you can call me greedy or whatever, or say I'm just saying it cause I write desc's for area's myself, but those aren't the only two reasons! I honestly believe they should. And doing that stuff as a caretaker is different, you have the prestige (and curse) of being a caretaker, you get to make the caretakers uberly bad arse in appearance and make them into 150 foot long dragons and spider monkeys and what have you. (not saying I wanna be a 150 foot spider monkey mind you, it was an example) But I mean, from where I sit (I have DM'd for a long time w/ friends, not as rough as being a caretaker, but it can get grueling none-the-less) Anyway, when players would help me with certain things, like say finding all the xp values for the monsters and totallign them up at the end so I don't have to do that crap, I reward them a little for their time. What I'm saying is, when a player gives up hours of playing time to make the MUD a better place, an obscure, hardly noticed reward (name on the author list) isn't as neato as getting a "magical sword" which doesn't affect the balance of the game but IS named "Gideon's Longsword of Pain" and responds to "get gideon" that kidna thing.
And I simply meant that if there aren't going to be any hirings for builders, players should get something for their time. And you can call me greedy or whatever, or say I'm just saying it cause I write desc's for area's myself, but those aren't the only two reasons!
I honestly believe they should. And doing that stuff as a caretaker is different, you have the prestige (and curse) of being a caretaker, you get to make the caretakers uberly bad arse in appearance and make them into 150 foot long dragons and spider monkeys and what have you. (not saying I wanna be a 150 foot spider monkey mind you, it was an example) But I mean, from where I sit (I have DM'd for a long time w/ friends, not as rough as being a caretaker, but it can get grueling none-the-less) Anyway, when players would help me with certain things, like say finding all the xp values for the monsters and totallign them up at the end so I don't have to do that crap, I reward them a little for their time. What I'm saying is, when a player gives up hours of playing time to make the MUD a better place, an obscure, hardly noticed reward (name on the author list) isn't as neato as getting a "magical sword" which doesn't affect the balance of the game but IS named "Gideon's Longsword of Pain" and responds to "get gideon" that kidna thing.
Zeraphin (#27)
So essentially, "full engraves" are something you'd like to see as a reward for building. Ie, rather than the normal engraves which only change the short desc, you get the name, long, and short desc changed, including the possibliity of capitals, which engrave doesn't allow. Or an mset custom race. Things of that nature, cosmestics.
Avestifal (#28)
Precisely! Things where you can alter your character, I mean, I'd want it to be something I'd be able to feasibly use, like if I wanted like "Vikingr Helmet of Valhalla" I wouldn't want a newbie cap that's renamed to that. If I was elvl 50 I'd want an elvl 50 mitrill helm that was renamed to that.
Like Gideon's shirt "I single handedly slew 7 constantines in on blow" was a cuirass.
Or, perhaps a free rename of the guild I posess, so that it would fit the RP design I have in mind for it. Nothing that gives me or anyone an unfair advantage. Just, as you said, full Engrave, not just the 100 gold ones, or Mset race kinda deal. That stuff on top of the author, nothing like a quadrillion gold.
Like Gideon's shirt "I single handedly slew 7 constantines in on blow" was a cuirass.
Or, perhaps a free rename of the guild I posess, so that it would fit the RP design I have in mind for it. Nothing that gives me or anyone an unfair advantage. Just, as you said, full Engrave, not just the 100 gold ones, or Mset race kinda deal. That stuff on top of the author, nothing like a quadrillion gold.
Isabelle (#29)
well kariyana, i didnt put your name up there, because the authors name would have needed to be :
Dark Legacy / Harax / Kariyana / Jaasiel
which was too huge, so, i settled for making a sign with your names on it, and, i offered you any reward of your choosing, if you thought your work wasnt recognized, well im sorry you feel that way, i guess any reward system will be doomed to fail, i should have just said thank you, and ended it at that, rather than giving you the tattoo that you had requested.
i will edit the area file and try it, if thats what you wanted.
You said i control your submissions before implementation, and that you have been badgered for something i could have done myself in the first place? First, i control nothing, whatever the player posts, i copy and paste into the area, its that simple. I wasnt aware of the badgering, i was asking for help fixing descriptions, and yeah, youre right, i could do it myself, but i just put the offer out there for help from those who wanted to give it.
A couple of the people who submitted room descriptions submitted poorly written descs, and when it was obvious right off, that the descs were no better than the ones they were replacing, i did indeed mention it.
And, the times i mentioned to players about typoes in room descs, it was to ensure quality of the area, nothing more. Even if there were 'builders' online, i would still be doing the same thing. (looking over your shoulder)
online building, its not in my power, it requires considerable effort on "celeborns" part, to code it to prevent players from cheating, at this moment, that does not exist. So, i make do with what i have, and, i think i have a darn good way to fix up areas, and keep everything very safe for me, and keep me happy, i like the bug typo thing, its simple, and its available. The other things you mention do not exist.
i hope that helps you understand my perspective. and i do understand yours, but its currently not an option.
Dark Legacy / Harax / Kariyana / Jaasiel
which was too huge, so, i settled for making a sign with your names on it, and, i offered you any reward of your choosing, if you thought your work wasnt recognized, well im sorry you feel that way, i guess any reward system will be doomed to fail, i should have just said thank you, and ended it at that, rather than giving you the tattoo that you had requested.
i will edit the area file and try it, if thats what you wanted.
You said i control your submissions before implementation, and that you have been badgered for something i could have done myself in the first place? First, i control nothing, whatever the player posts, i copy and paste into the area, its that simple. I wasnt aware of the badgering, i was asking for help fixing descriptions, and yeah, youre right, i could do it myself, but i just put the offer out there for help from those who wanted to give it.
A couple of the people who submitted room descriptions submitted poorly written descs, and when it was obvious right off, that the descs were no better than the ones they were replacing, i did indeed mention it.
And, the times i mentioned to players about typoes in room descs, it was to ensure quality of the area, nothing more. Even if there were 'builders' online, i would still be doing the same thing. (looking over your shoulder)
online building, its not in my power, it requires considerable effort on "celeborns" part, to code it to prevent players from cheating, at this moment, that does not exist. So, i make do with what i have, and, i think i have a darn good way to fix up areas, and keep everything very safe for me, and keep me happy, i like the bug typo thing, its simple, and its available. The other things you mention do not exist.
i hope that helps you understand my perspective. and i do understand yours, but its currently not an option.
Kariyana (#30)
I see that the whole point of the post was missed, yet again. This is why there's a thing called re-reading.
1) I wasn't made aware of a sign of any sorts, just the tattoo.
2) I've never been a part of a MUD where rewards were made part of the building process. For the most part, just my name being in the area list was enough for me. I didn't even expect the extra thing, and in turn, you really didn't have to offer it to me. But you did. And when you did, that left me up to accepting. I didn't know sarcasm was something to be expected either, coming especially from the source that it is.
3) Now that the tone has been set to where offense is a necessity in determining a retort, no need to bother with any other extra work on your part.
4) Please remind me where your name was mentioned in the post where I expressed concern over submissions being controlled before implementation. And I never said that you badgered me for something you could have done in the first place. I don't understand where you get that, or the fact that you were the subject of the initial comment. If you can find it, then I will apologize. But since I just re-read what I posted, I won't. I have no need to.
It sounds like you're unimpressed with the post, and I'm sorry if you feel that way. I didn't mean to put that out there to impress anyone, I put it out there as a honest means of expression from my end. And I did state, in the beginning, that you could take it as you wish. And you have, clearly. I guess I should have expected sarcasm at this point in the discussion, which is a shame.
1) I wasn't made aware of a sign of any sorts, just the tattoo.
2) I've never been a part of a MUD where rewards were made part of the building process. For the most part, just my name being in the area list was enough for me. I didn't even expect the extra thing, and in turn, you really didn't have to offer it to me. But you did. And when you did, that left me up to accepting. I didn't know sarcasm was something to be expected either, coming especially from the source that it is.
3) Now that the tone has been set to where offense is a necessity in determining a retort, no need to bother with any other extra work on your part.
4) Please remind me where your name was mentioned in the post where I expressed concern over submissions being controlled before implementation. And I never said that you badgered me for something you could have done in the first place. I don't understand where you get that, or the fact that you were the subject of the initial comment. If you can find it, then I will apologize. But since I just re-read what I posted, I won't. I have no need to.
It sounds like you're unimpressed with the post, and I'm sorry if you feel that way. I didn't mean to put that out there to impress anyone, I put it out there as a honest means of expression from my end. And I did state, in the beginning, that you could take it as you wish. And you have, clearly. I guess I should have expected sarcasm at this point in the discussion, which is a shame.
Zeraphin (#31)
Please recall that text cannot convey emotion or tone. I have reread the entire thread and cannot detect any hints of sarcasm, though some assumptions may have been made by both sides.
Kariyana: Your original posts mentions head builders will and do knit-pick. For all intents and purposes, Isabelle is the head builder on DL, so its not too far a stretch for her to assume that she's whom you refer to.
Obviously there is some communication work that needs to be done in regards to the whole situation, but that's part of what creating the forums aims to do, to air out our complaints or ideas in a larger medium than noteboards allow. Obviously, this thread couldn't have existed in game.
Step back, remember that this is all done, by all of us, for free in our free time, sometimes after a long day at work or school, or taking care of the kids, take your deep breathe, and go at it again.
Credit will always be given where due. Perhaps the area list command needs adjusted to allow a larger area for author names, or perhaps an "area info" command needs to be added so players can gather more in-depth information about an area. Also, we may need to put into writing what types of work, and how much of it, warrants being listed as an author.
Kariyana: Your original posts mentions head builders will and do knit-pick. For all intents and purposes, Isabelle is the head builder on DL, so its not too far a stretch for her to assume that she's whom you refer to.
Obviously there is some communication work that needs to be done in regards to the whole situation, but that's part of what creating the forums aims to do, to air out our complaints or ideas in a larger medium than noteboards allow. Obviously, this thread couldn't have existed in game.
Step back, remember that this is all done, by all of us, for free in our free time, sometimes after a long day at work or school, or taking care of the kids, take your deep breathe, and go at it again.
Credit will always be given where due. Perhaps the area list command needs adjusted to allow a larger area for author names, or perhaps an "area info" command needs to be added so players can gather more in-depth information about an area. Also, we may need to put into writing what types of work, and how much of it, warrants being listed as an author.
Kariyana (#32)
Oh I agree 110% on the conveyance of tone where text is concerned, it's something I've witnessed and been a part of for the last 9 years now.
And I agree that the forums are great for getting all feelings, concerns and opinions out where as they wouldn't be able to take place on the MUD itself. Many of us have expressed opinions on avenues for others to view and they've been removed, for reasons we're unaware of.
Perhaps have an area help file that shows the people responsible for the maintain and upkeep of an area where it's listed at the bottom? That would be a good fix too
And I agree that the forums are great for getting all feelings, concerns and opinions out where as they wouldn't be able to take place on the MUD itself. Many of us have expressed opinions on avenues for others to view and they've been removed, for reasons we're unaware of.
Perhaps have an area help file that shows the people responsible for the maintain and upkeep of an area where it's listed at the bottom? That would be a good fix too
Zeraphin (#33)
The main reasons most notes get removed on the in-game noteboards is to simply clear space. Note list can only display so much information, and as such notes have to be removed. Sometimes they get removed before they really got a response, which is unfortunate.
It used to be the practice to have a help file for every area. Most of the stock areas have them. It would be a good place to put a description of its areas, explaination of the soft and hard level restrictions, and a full detailing of the major and minor authors of the the area.
Its got my support.
It used to be the practice to have a help file for every area. Most of the stock areas have them. It would be a good place to put a description of its areas, explaination of the soft and hard level restrictions, and a full detailing of the major and minor authors of the the area.
Its got my support.
Silvanos (#34)
I have to say i would really like the idea of an area info command. Listing not only the authors and construction workers but also info about the plot of the area, mb its relative size, this can allow for more info on the difficulty of mobs so ppl can stop whining about where to level. Maybe even a levelling recommendation for the level its at? score from 1-10. Just useful stuff that doesnt give away any secrets or whatever.
but also info about the plot of the area, mb its relative size, this can allow for more info on the difficulty of mobs so ppl can stop whining about where to level. Maybe even a levelling recommendation for the level its at? score from 1-10. Just useful stuff that doesnt give away any secrets or whatever.
Zeraphin (#35)
I am now looking for individuals to partake in this exercize. Your job will be to write and submit what Silvanos just described: The plot/theme of the area, its relative size, what levels is focuses around, and the general usefulness of the area. For example, some areas are purely for leveling, while others exist mainly to contain a quest or story line, or specific equipment for Avatars (Granted, most people craft these days).
If you're interested, send me a private message (PM) and I will give you a block of areas to work on. Please contact me before you do any work, as I don't want anyone duplicating work that already got done.
If you're interested, send me a private message (PM) and I will give you a block of areas to work on. Please contact me before you do any work, as I don't want anyone duplicating work that already got done.
lingolas (#36)
i'm not a builder and wasnt a very good one on Shadow Dominion. So my comment probably has little value, but just read on anyway.
The trust issue is a big deal. The middleman is necessary. It's just one of the security thing that DL have learned from the past.
The trust issue is a big deal. The middleman is necessary. It's just one of the security thing that DL have learned from the past.
Kariyana (#37)
I've seen problems arise where trust was a deciding factor in whether to hire, fire or ban someone when it comes to building. Systems in place with fail-safe methods should help alleviate any negative trust, though if it's set up right, trust shouldn't even be an issue.
There are many methods to help with this: a watch file upon hiring for 60-90 days, restriction of having a mortal character for builders, denying access to commands that allows for people to access certain information, immortal-builder mentoring and interaction, builder-only code, etc. No matter where you go, you will always find someone that's going to try to slip through the cracks and help him/herself to something that they shouldn't. But it's what you do before, during and after this happen that determines how well they are able to get away with it.
Speaking from an admin standpoint, I've had to put watch files on people because of a feeling I've had, and in the end, my feelings were right and resulted in strip, sacrifice, and balzhur with a site ban to keep the person from coming back. I'm sure it's easier on DL because of the account code, and the way ban works here is probably a bit different than the way ban works on any other MUD.
You are never going to find a MUD where cheating doesn't happen. Someone out there is always finding a way to outsmart the smart people, and in the end, a lesson is learned and policies are changed to help prevent this from happening again. If you can't trust anyone that you put in a position of administration or building, maybe you need to re-evaluate your position with the group and see if there's anything you can do on your end to help yourself trust again. I'm not saying you have to open yourself up fully, I'm saying that you have to give those who have real experience a chance. Develop a policy where you're 100% sure of someone before hiring them, then install a way to keep an eye on them for a certain time frame. Just don't tell them about it. It helps in more ways than you think Believe me, 5 years of immortal experience and 9 years of total playtime experience gives you the ability to do so
There are many methods to help with this: a watch file upon hiring for 60-90 days, restriction of having a mortal character for builders, denying access to commands that allows for people to access certain information, immortal-builder mentoring and interaction, builder-only code, etc. No matter where you go, you will always find someone that's going to try to slip through the cracks and help him/herself to something that they shouldn't. But it's what you do before, during and after this happen that determines how well they are able to get away with it.
Speaking from an admin standpoint, I've had to put watch files on people because of a feeling I've had, and in the end, my feelings were right and resulted in strip, sacrifice, and balzhur with a site ban to keep the person from coming back. I'm sure it's easier on DL because of the account code, and the way ban works here is probably a bit different than the way ban works on any other MUD.
You are never going to find a MUD where cheating doesn't happen. Someone out there is always finding a way to outsmart the smart people, and in the end, a lesson is learned and policies are changed to help prevent this from happening again. If you can't trust anyone that you put in a position of administration or building, maybe you need to re-evaluate your position with the group and see if there's anything you can do on your end to help yourself trust again. I'm not saying you have to open yourself up fully, I'm saying that you have to give those who have real experience a chance. Develop a policy where you're 100% sure of someone before hiring them, then install a way to keep an eye on them for a certain time frame. Just don't tell them about it. It helps in more ways than you think
Believe me, 5 years of immortal experience and 9 years of total playtime experience gives you the ability to do so
Zeraphin (#38)
This discussion of trust is somewhat moot. No area builders will exist on the main port, only Caretakers. That's just the way its going to be. Fail safe methods were used in the past, but the damage was still done despite numerous security lock downs. Builders couldn't even go anywhere but gods.are and their assign areas, and still managed to get around various other safe guards.
Builders will not exist until the BPORT is ready to go, and even then it will have various safe guards in place such as removing all main port areas that aren't needed for the mud to function. This could be as soon as this week, but there won't be any builders on the main port.
Builders will not exist until the BPORT is ready to go, and even then it will have various safe guards in place such as removing all main port areas that aren't needed for the mud to function. This could be as soon as this week, but there won't be any builders on the main port.
Anonymous (#39)
Don't you just hate it when others mess things up for everyone else? 
Avestifal (#40)
aye, i do 
My application still stands
My application still stands
Hokuten (#41)
I remember seeing Dragonfly on a friend's comp - it was really easy to use. Do you think that if it was re-introduced, we could make more rapid headway on these problem areas? We could introduce some "stock" mobs, like generic trolls or guards. Each mob could be grouped with other mobs by race, and maybe each major race (troll, human, elf, etc.) would have 15 different mobs (lv 10 mostly-melee, lv. 10 mostly-magic, lv. 10 mostly-ranged, lv. 20 mostly-melee, etc.). These "stock" mobs could be equipped identically, so that lower-levelled players would have easy access to equipment that - while it wouldn't be that great - would still be better than the stock gear.
...just a thought ^_^
...just a thought ^_^
