racial imbalances — Tactics and Builds

Tri-Avatar

Sep 20, 2004 · 01:10 #1

Sure, it's impossible to have the races completly balanced, and they probably shouldnt be anyway. But the way things are now, it's EXTREME.

Humans: Suck, except MAYBE the clover starsign under certain circumstances.
Dwarves: Suck, except for a mining alt.
Elves: Suck.
Lizardmen: Suck.
Trolls: Suck.
Phasians: Suck.
Ogres: Suck.
Orcs: Suck.
Gerps: Suck.
Pixies: Kick lots of ass.
Gnomes: Kick even more ass.

Sure, you could say that any of the sucky races can be chosen for roleplay purposes...wait, what roleplay?

I spy a balance problem.

~Ocardus/Ridley

★ Arch-Caretaker

Sep 20, 2004 · 22:04 #2

This would help a lot more if you would add an analyses of why races are weak and what could be done to better them.

Wheeeeee,
Cellyyyyy

Newbie

Sep 20, 2004 · 22:39 #3

ummm just to add some insight or as far as i knowness.....Elves are pretty well balanced they dont suck at all...they have strong enough complexities and are strong enough physically....they need no tweeking

Avatar

Sep 20, 2004 · 22:53 #4

I agree with Jhereko, elves are actually configured quite nicely at the moment.

However I will agree with Weems on the Phasian issue. They do suck. Runewalking is cool, but they have absolutely no other advantages, or disadvantages over other races. I would imagine that the smurf people with magical runes in their heads would have other magical capabilities aside from runewalking without a pillar. Perhaps the ability to set a pillar somewhere temporarily for like 5 minutes and be able to rw back to it. Or some complexities bonus. Or stat bonuses/penalties.

Phasians are just so... neutral. If I would have known all about it, I never would have made a phasian character. I would have just made another elf. or a gnome.

Avatar

Sep 20, 2004 · 23:02 #5

I'd have to say that I generally agree, though the gap has been narrowed slightly since the breath - balance thing was put in. But still, pixies really have an advantage over the other classes in that they can use the same eq as everyone else, there's no noticeable health difference between an ogre and a pixie of the same level. Pixies have +'s and no -'s. Pro's but no con's. And they have some pretty nice pro's too. Compared to orcs? I mean come on... 25% magic complexity plus some MR to boot with no disadvantages and orcs get a rage just before dead, and don't take extra damage for fighting in agg and berserk styles, but also lose some complexity unless I'm mistaken, not very good pro's and a disadvantage. True pixies SHOULD be better at magic than other classes, but they shouldn't be just as good at melee as the others.

Tri-Avatar

Sep 20, 2004 · 23:19 #6

You got me there, celly. I'll try to be more in-depth this time around.

Humans starsigns
Void: Useless, completly. Cannot be affected by magic? OUCH! Magic-Resistance is just so much better in every way.
Avatar: Ick. Maybe if you liked to change your deity all the time to make different types of sigils? Hmmm...
Tower: Perhaps if you REALLY liked to explore and can't live without the extra 2 spaces you see on the map. The mobility bonus is barely noticable.
Furnace: 4 complexity? Not bad, until you remember that pixies and gnomes get more, with less of a penalty.
Unicorn: Half mana is actually pretty useful...But 25% more damage recieved?! OUCH!
Clover: Quite possibly the only useful starsign. 2 luck, 25% more gold, 10% more treasure, is all useful bonuses.
Waterfall: Interesting, but doesnt really have a practical use.
Cyclone: Same as waterfall.
Landslide: Same as waterfall.
Sun: Same as waterfall.
Moon: Another weird one. But the bonuses are useless, as per usual.
Fist: 2 AR and 10 damroll. Thats what, a few thousand enchant space? No thanks.
Guardian Spirit: Two luck and half exp losses from fleeing/dying/supplicating corpses...Who would design their character around the idea of having less penalties for FAILURE? This starsign makes no sense.
Comet: Speed is fun =). But it's nothing a good caster cant summon up at will, enhanced by being a Gnome or a Pixie.
Shadow: Eh, why not just cast invisibility? Or wear a warp cloak?
Hospic: Decent in theory for a pure fighter, but since magic is just so incredibly powerful for buffing up, nobody really bothers with a pure figher. And when they do, they choose a more apt race like Troll.
Shield: This is one of the worse ones. It's like a Gnome except worse in EVERY way.
Reed: Useless bonuses on the long term.
Beauty: Hmmm...><

Troll: -25% complexity is DEVESTATING. Magic is just too strong to turn down like that. And from what I can see, their normal/limb regen isn't good or fast enough to be useful.

Dwarf: Prospecting in the mines is just about it for these guys.

Phasian: I suppose being able to runewalk from anywhere is a nice utility effect...But seriously...><

Orc: Feral rage? A burst of power before death to save your ass...Good in theory, but in practice, you just die.

Gerp: 60% slash resist innate is actually pretty decent! Thats a good amount that can't be severed off, might be usefull in pvp...But with the way things are now, pretty useless.

Lizardmen: Aquabreath. Wow. NEXT!

Ogre: Some mediocre complexity bonuses...Blargh.

Elf: Better complexity bonuses, but still not on par with the top two.

Pixie: A massive complexity bonus, innate fly, and kinshape (quite useful if you are creative) make this one of the most popular power races, and with good reason.

Gnome: A more advanced version of pixie. Requires a bit of work to get onto the 'normal' scale (getting up to medium or large size), and a little bit less complexity. But with 1 MR per level until 50, and then the ability to buy another 20 with only 10 or so epiclevels...It's basically the magical strength of a Pixie, and the magical immunity of a voider, but only for spells that you wouldnt want cast on you anyway. The best. Identifying items on sight is just icing on the cake.

Thats it for now. I'll get started on my ideas on how to balance the races.

Dual-Avatar

Sep 21, 2004 · 01:52 #7

Some correction and comments for Weemster's post.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:19 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
You got me there, celly. I'll try to be more in-depth this time around.

Humans starsigns
Void: Useless, completly. Cannot be affected by magic? OUCH! Magic-Resistance is just so much better in every way.
[penalty for voids are just too great. There is absolutely no good reason for playing them.]
Avatar: Ick. Maybe if you liked to change your deity all the time to make different types of sigils? Hmmm...
[i dont know what this one does, but I'm sure it's unimportant, otherwise i would know]
Tower: Perhaps if you REALLY liked to explore and can't live without the extra 2 spaces you see on the map. The mobility bonus is barely noticable.
[another useless bonus. Someone must be out of their mind if they pick this one]
Furnace: 4 complexity? Not bad, until you remember that pixies and gnomes get more, with less of a penalty.
[an extra 4 complexity will allow you to add one more fec at max. WOW!!!!]
Unicorn: Half mana is actually pretty useful...But 25% more damage recieved?! OUCH!
[not sure about this one, 25% more damage may not be so bad if you have your resistances up. but like what he said, it's still bad tradeoff]
Clover: Quite possibly the only useful starsign. 2 luck, 25% more gold, 10% more treasure, is all useful bonuses.
[Not a bad bonus]
Waterfall: Interesting, but doesnt really have a practical use.
[only good if can find someone with -water resitance. UNtil you can find a mob or someone who has that penalty, your skill is pretty much useless]
Cyclone: Same as waterfall.
[same]
Landslide: Same as waterfall.
[same]
Sun: Same as waterfall.
[same]
Moon: Another weird one. But the bonuses are useless, as per usual.[never played moon]
Fist: 2 AR and 10 damroll. Thats what, a few thousand enchant space? No thanks.[7500 enchantment space at most. not bad, but at high level, 7500 enchantment space is nothing. besides, AR can be gain by set body. And 10 damage roll is barely noticeable in combat]
Guardian Spirit: Two luck and half exp losses from fleeing/dying/supplicating corpses...Who would design their character around the idea of having less penalties for FAILURE? This starsign makes no sense.
[not a bad one, by the time i reach e500 i've lost around 10-15 levels of exp. This bonus is simply giving you a couple of free levels.]
Comet: Speed is fun =). But it's nothing a good caster cant summon up at will, enhanced by being a Gnome or a Pixie.[same as what he said. if you're going for speed then this race is a bad idea]
Shadow: Eh, why not just cast invisibility? Or wear a warp cloak?
[i have never played the shadow, but invisibility bonus is a crappy bonus. a good way to boost this class is to give them the autohide bonus. this will give them a distinctive bonus in the epic dungeon. Also, the Shadow hide bonus should not be detectable by other players if he stands still and doesnt do anything or say anything in a room.]
Hospic: Decent in theory for a pure fighter, but since magic is just so incredibly powerful for buffing up, nobody really bothers with a pure figher. And when they do, they choose a more apt race like Troll.
[i dont entirely agree with Weem on this one. exchanging mana for HP is quite a useful bonus. this will give you incredible advantage in combat and especially against mobs. The last couple of thousand mana can determin the outcome of a battle. a pure melee is actually not a bad idea. i wish i was one, all this magic power is making me sick.]
Shield: This is one of the worse ones. It's like a Gnome except worse in EVERY way.
Reed: Useless bonuses on the long term.
[I had a reed, all you get is 2 extra Mobility if i'm correct. WOW HOW USELESS.]
Beauty: Hmmm...><

Troll: -25% complexity is DEVESTATING. Magic is just too strong to turn down like that. And from what I can see, their normal/limb regen isn't good or fast enough to be useful.
[ i know a bit about troll since i'm pretty much the oldest surviving troll in the game. Trolls do have their advantages and disadvantages. Their high strength makes up for their -mobility -ar. Their regeneration is pretty useless because your limbs never grow fast enough to save you. Your HP regeneration is never good enough to save you because battles end so quickly and it takes 3 ticks to start regenerating. When i reached triave, my regeneration was 10. what the !@!%!$? 10 HP every 3 ticks? that's bull#@$@. -20% fire resistance isn't so bad because not everyone uses fire, but this may change. The ability to carry a load of weight is useful, but only like once a year when you have to carry an anvil or a noteboard from one citadel to another. Other than that, the
heavy weight is useless. I suggest that trolls get +20 cold resistance to make up for their -20 fire. body regeneration should be faster so that it is more useful. They should have damage reduction bonus for their huge size and thick skin. -mobility penalty because of their size.]

Dwarf: Prospecting in the mines is just about it for these guys.[not entirely. dwarf do get pretty good base stats. I think that dwarves are very balance right now. please dont touch them.]

Phasian: I suppose being able to runewalk from anywhere is a nice utility effect...But seriously...><[this used to be an awsome bonus, until we lost our ability to runewalk out of battles. This is crazy!!! i say give us back our ability to rw out of battles. Perhaps add in some time lag or loss of mana for performing such action, but we should have the ability to runewalk out of battles]

Orc: Feral rage? A burst of power before death to save your ass...Good in theory, but in practice, you just die.[like what he said]

Gerp: 60% slash resist innate is actually pretty decent! Thats a good amount that can't be severed off, might be usefull in pvp...But with the way things are now, pretty useless.[i think this ability is still very good. 60% resistance is a lot of enchantment space. and these 60% are permanent. In my opinion, this is a very decent bonus]

Lizardmen: Aquabreath. Wow. NEXT![nice base stats but still pretty darn useless. how often do you drown?

Ogre: Some mediocre complexity bonuses...Blargh.[never played, but it seems that no one plays them, hrm, this may suggest something...]

Elf: Better complexity bonuses, but still not on par with the top two. [elves are great. well rounded everywhere. Please leave them alone!!!]

Pixie: A massive complexity bonus, innate fly, and kinshape (quite useful if you are creative) make this one of the most popular power races, and with good reason.[incrediably overpower. why? because if these pixies get their hands on ultra runes and understand how to use them properly they can own almost anyone. a pixie paladin augurer can get at least a wooping 6 AR with spells alone. 6AR = 18000 enchantment space. Hey, it doesnt stop there, what about a pixie paladin/cleric/psionist? this combo will give them a huge advantage over defensive spells. they can easily stack up incredible amount free enchantment space with the proper classes and proper key items. Sure they are weak at first but in the long run, they are incredibly powerful. The game is completely out of balance when you have a load of newbie pixies running around killing veterans. If something is not done, Alora will become pixieland with peterpan flying around.

Gnome: A more advanced version of pixie. Requires a bit of work to get onto the 'normal' scale (getting up to medium or large size), and a little bit less complexity. But with 1 MR per level until 50, and then the ability to buy another 20 with only 10 or so epiclevels...It's basically the magical strength of a Pixie, and the magical immunity of a voider, but only for spells that you wouldnt want cast on you anyway. The best. Identifying items on sight is just icing on the cake.
[the only pixie counter that i know of but i havent acutally tried out because i ran out of alts]
Thats it for now. I'll get started on my ideas on how to balance the races.[Please do!!!]

Avatar

Sep 21, 2004 · 09:41 #8

I just am focusing on phasians right now:

Runewalking out of battles is a pretty lame concept. I think it's stupid and gives phasians a sick ability in PVP, if the phasian gets worried he's gonna die: "oops I'm almost dead! Well just type runewalk touch 4 and TA DA! I'm away from the battle and at the entrance to my castle now, wheeeeeee ha ha.

I agree they should have more to them besides just prevention of runewalk sickness (all this gives them, really, is the ability to hop from pillar to pillar until they get dropped in a special place). Maybe give them something like....they can runewalk to any of their waypoints at will. Making travelling uberly awesome for a phasian.

Newbie

Sep 21, 2004 · 22:08 #9

hmm again that idea is mostly just a utility bonus, cos you can just use travel anyway and then refresh your hp, besides, most places are easy to get to, you just have to know where to astral to

but yes, i agree, the runewalk out of battle was kinda stupid in pvp cos i remember pedra doing it all the time to me.......but again i agree that phasians are nothing more than blue people who can runewalk as much as they like

and the runewalking from out of a room isnt that useful cos you could just cast runegate if needs be, or if push comes to shove, just use supp recall

but the wheel's turning in my brain right now but the hamster is dead so i cant seem to think of a way to balance phasians, i'll get back to you on it

Tri-Avatar

Sep 22, 2004 · 02:24 #10

Alright, rant time...

First off, I'll start in saying that I understand what you people are saying about Elves. Not that they are powerful compared to certain other races, but that are a good medium, and showcase the powerlevel of what a race SHOULD be.

And, in saying that, I would to say that I completly disagree.

It would be both impossible and impractical to have so many races, each with a unique ability, that are also rougly balanced. Impossible. I have seen it before, and I will see it again, it never works. Extreme races encourage 'builds' (a pre-set design for your character that is based on power), as opposed to 'effort' (keeping one character and sticking with it).

The key to balancing races is to simplify them. Less extreme. Sure, races should be different in power, weaknesses, strengths...But ultimatly, it should all come down to how much time and effort you put into it. A decision you make at the chracter selection screen should *NOT* have such a long term impact that most newbies must inevitably remake.

This also brings up numerous other issues. Leveling, and magic. Because of the extreme races, making new characters to suit changes and patches is seemingly encouraged. And because of this, leveling is always a constant issue. People (me included) always want to be able to tri-avater quickly and easily, because its just viewed as an obstacle between you and epic levels. The less extreme races are, the less of a focus there is on making new characters, because there wouldnt be the need to.

The problem with magic is that it favors some races more than others. Magic is just too useful to turn down, more complexity is more power. And this also brings up a yet deeper problem with magic...Since your character never gets any better at magic after getting crowned (a very serious issue), the race is of the utmost importance. Epic levels give you the illusion of infinite leveling, and therefore infinite power, but in reality it is nothing of the sort. Your potential for magic is forever decided at 1/1/1.

The solution to all of these problems is to simplify the races. A good simplification to start with would be to vastly reduce all racial complexity bonuses and penalties. +5%/-5% at most would be plenty sufficient. Of course, since some races rely on this as a main bonus (Pixies) and others as a main penalty (Trolls), the races would have to be completly rebalanced to reflect this.

But the end result would be a selection of races that allowed you to choose a race that you LIKED, rather than one you just wanted to be strong with. It would encourage roleplay and character development.

Another change that could go along with this would be to put more emphasis on magical complexity based on level. Maybe your complexity could raise as you go up in epic levels, based on your classes? IE a Paladin would get a lot more divine as he leveled up in epics, but very little sensory/nature/etc. In addition, complexity points could be bought (this has been suggested many times before), with pricing based on your classes. Complexity points for schools that your character is inclined to would be a lot cheaper (but still expensive).

Some might argue that this would be bad because it would allow 'just anybody' to get very powerful spells, but that isn't true. It would be scaled based on class and how many previous points were bought, preventing somebody from just getting a crazy amount without having a crazy amount of epic levels as well, and using up all their epicpoints on it, as opposed to other things. The more you can do with epic points, the better, as long as it stays balanced.

I guess thats it for now. Please post all your comments!

Retired Caretaker

Sep 22, 2004 · 03:49 #11

unfortunately, to balance, the changes would be extreme, as you know, thats the main reason why they werent implemented, too much of a shock

my solution to the imbalance follows your outline, and would be as follows

classes = gone
races = receive a couple skills inherant to their racial profile, so race 1 gets cool cooking prowess as a innate main skill, race 2 gets melee combat/staves as a main skill, etc
skill points given out every level / couple of levels
skill points are given to the skills to boost them
equipment would have level / skill requirements to use
there would be x amount of max skills, to prevent a player from being specialized in all skills. (so you could be a pure mage, or a mage / fighter, or a fighter cook, with some minor magic skill, etc

course, this is extreme, so, getting back to your idea, i would say races should be more of a 'roleplaying thing' and less of a 'pick this race to become super powerful'

Dual-Avatar

Sep 22, 2004 · 09:08 #12

i'm sure we are all familiar with diablo 2. I like to see DL adopt skills this way or at least test it out. I like Isabelle's idea of gaining skill points and then we get to invest the points on whatever skills we want. In addition to her idea, i think that skill costs should vary depending on the skill and the class. For example: it would cost only like 2 skill points to upgrade pick for a rogue when compared to 7 skill points for a paladin. 20 skill points to upgrade heal for a warrior and 2 skillpoints for a cleric...you get the idea.

Newbie

Sep 22, 2004 · 15:19 #13

i've never played Diablo 2 so lingo's point goes right over my head

but it seems that issy's idea reminds me of Morrowind which i really enjoyed cos it'd be cool if we could get stronger in things WE choose rather than stronger in things our class restricts us too

plus it'd complement the crafting side of the game perfectly cos we could configure our characters to a much finer degree

AHEM EDIT POINT HERE

i just re-read lingo's post to try clarify things and it made sense this time, i like the idea that it would cost more skill points for a warrior to learn say swords than it would a mage to learn the same skill, so yeah good idea

Dual-Avatar

Sep 22, 2004 · 20:24 #14

now that i have read the 2nd part of weem's note, i disagree with the idea of promoting comformity to balance the races. I believe the exact opposite. I think that every race should be extreme from one another. Races used to be this way. They used to be pretty much the same, the person with the Highest HP is usually the winner in a pvp. Since all the changes and a variety of gams that i've played, i support extremity. the hardest part is to figure out how to make things balance. And here is one way to balance things.

We can assign bonus points to bonuses. For exampel:
25% complexity = 50 points
aquabreath = 4 points
+4 strenghts = 10 points
20% cold resistnace = 6 points
...

Then we assign these bonuses to the races. In the end we make sure that every race get the same amount of points. Races with shitty bonuses get alot of shitty bonuses. Races with good useful bonuses get only a small number of good bonuses. We know that this is balanced because the points are all equal.

you get the idea, if not let me know i'll explain it in details.

bonus points distribution can also be applied to classes, but this may require alot of work and effort.

Tri-Avatar

Sep 22, 2004 · 21:37 #15

Ah, Isabelle, you are referring to a classless system

. My favorite setup. A classless system allows for true customization, your character gets better at what he wants to get better at.

Unfortunetly I, like you, doubt DL will take that path.

And yes, I realize that such extreme changes will probably never be implemented, because it would just take incredible amounts of work, but its fun to theorize and hope. *shrug*

Lingolas:

You are missing the point. I am trying to say that your race should not have a vast effect on the power of your character. The biggest factor should be the time you put in, your intelligence while playing, your skill...Etc.

If you think every race should be extreme...Well, you are looking at it. That's how DL is right now. Races cannot possibly be balanced while they are extreme.

It's like trying to solve an algebra problem with three variables in it by sticking random numbers in and hoping that they work. It's not going to happen. But if you systemically eleminate the variables and break it down, until none of those annoying variables are left, then you DO solve the problem

.

Do you see what I'm talking about?

Simplification is the key.

~Ocardus/Ridley

Dual-Avatar

Sep 22, 2004 · 22:14 #16

maybe what i suggested has little to do with balance. now that i think about it, it has alot to do with uniqueness. I guess i wante to see the uniqueness of every race. not advantages or disadvantages that offset the balance.

also, even with a long complicated equation with many variables, it is still possible to balance the equation, just not as easy.

Avatar

Sep 23, 2004 · 07:40 #17

Please Weems, you should think before you post such comments. Every race stinks except pixies and gnomes, what mud are you playing on, cause its not DL. I have played every race except gnome, and have not had any trouble leveling any of them, and I do not group. Plus you list elves as a poor race, my daughter was 12 years old when her elf made Tri-Av and she loves the race. If you are having problems with even that race, perhaps you should think about playing someplace that is not as demanding. My daughter played on several Mud’s that she thought was too easy and boring, perhaps they are closer to your skill range. Every race has its strengths and weaknesses; you will never make a troll into a super-duper spellcaster. Think about the race and what classes will be best for them and you will find that the races are fairly well balanced. But from your post I can see that you believe that spell casting is all-important, and any race that is not a super-duper spell caster is worthless. It would be interesting to see how your great spell casting choices would fair when pitted against a worthless Voider. You did say that they were worthless in your second post, did you not. I have not played every starsign available to humans, but I have tried a few. First off, humans are an average race and the baseline from which other races diverge. I see starsigns as a means to give them a little help while they are leveling, not a ticket to being a power player. The starsigns that I have tried fill this role very well. You complain that the Fist only saves a few thousand enchant space, could you not then use that few thousand enchantment for some other worthy purpose. And if the Reed is so useless in the long run, then why would anyone waste their epic points on DR, as that is useless to have. Do you adventure naked for the challenge? You say that the Comet is no good as any good spell caster has haste. But what if someone wants to play a pure fighter, and does not have a good haste spell? Oh, I forgot, you sad they would play a troll if they wished to do that. You go on to say in another post that a decision at character selection should NOT have a long term impact, why not? This is your race we are talking about, how can the choice of a race not have a long term impact. One thing that you said does ring true though, “People (me included) always want to be able to tri-avater quickly and easily, because its just viewed as an obstacle between you and epic levels.) That explains a lot of the power leveling I have seen of late. No one wants to take the time to build a character up, then they get to epic levels and get their ___ kicked by the epic mobs. I could go on, but I have wasted enough time on your silly post, I got more important things to do.
Arureal The Absent-Minded Elf
The truth hurts, that’s why I like it.

Avatar

Sep 23, 2004 · 18:41 #18

Uhm, lets not be attacking people's character through behind the hand sniping. That's bad form, wot? And it just leads to pissing people off.

Anyway, Arureal. As to the point of the super-duper spellcaster vs a voider:

Sure, the spells the spellcaster casts on the voider won't do squat, but the spellcaster has access to speed buffs etc, and the haste juice can only boost you twice, bringing you to about 60 speed. The spellcaster gets the benefits of its own insane haste, time-flux, vigilance, and the overkill of the haste juice.
And on top of that it can wear all the same eq that the voider can, and so all the spellcaster has to do is jab a couple quadrillion times, and if he gets a sever on the Voider, the Voider's toast. But if the Spellcaster gets a sever it spam regens. So I think that unless the Voider was stellarly far better equipped/played than the spellcaster, the Voider would be hard pressed to procure a victory.

He never once said that he was having trouble leveling the other races. But what I'm gleaning from his posts, he's saying that it's a heck of a lot easier to make an uber character out of a pixie or a gnome than it is to make one out of say, an orc. Granted that it would take more effort and work and be more unique to make an Orc is fine, but he's talking about racial imbalances here.

DR purchasing via epic points is pretty much worthless, you get too little for too much after a while, I'm sure you'd agree that 1 DR point for 10 epic points is hardly worth the time given that so much DR is required to actually be very effective, I'd much rather spend my points on stats or Regen after I get the first 20 MR points.

I disagree as well to his points on elves, I play one and he's doing right nicely.

I feel you should re-evaluate how you express your opinions. Much of those Truths as you called them (and I'm not debating the fact) could have been just as easily pointed out without doing what you could to blast his ego. For instance the words: "I disagree" and "here's why" could have been used in place of "you" and "your silly post".

And not I'm not saying the world should be all butterflies and bunny rabbits either with people playing touchie feelie music and holding hands while singing "coom-baya", but if you disagree, bring up counterpoints. We don't want a giant fire fight on the forums.

Tri-Avatar

Sep 23, 2004 · 19:44 #19

Arureal, I do not know who you are and why you don't understand my points, but it irks me a lot. I felt that I was pretty clear. But I guess I wasn't.

The point isn't that some races are too hard to play, it's that some races are clearly better than others.

You mentioned a pure fighter in your post, and how a comet would be good at being one.

Lets examine this for a second

. The only way to have a pure fighter is to be a Warrior/Rogue/Bard. They are the only three classes that have no prism magic abilities at all.

As a war/rog/bar, you would have 99% in every armor type, and 99% swords, axes, exotics, daggers, and talonous. Great. The comet would give him a SMALL boost of speed, every once in a while.

Now, lets look at MY 'pure' fighter. A Gnomic Psion/Paladin/Rogue.

He gets one magic resistance per level, and a 20% innate bonus to all complexity schools, 99% in exotics (all I need), 99% in light and medium armor, and 90% in heavy. The spells he casts allows him to:
1. Take half damage from all attacks.
2. Give blunt resist a free 50%.
3. Have about 90ish speed at all times (keeping my buffs up).
4. Get an additional SEVEN attack rating from Bless. (no surps)
5. An additional 3 mobility (9/3).
6. More balance.

THAT is what my spellcasting is for. Not offense. No voider would stand a chance against any well built character. And you know what? Because a Gnome gets 50 MR at tri-av, and then 20+ more from epic levels, he basically IS a voider, except it only stops the BAD spells from hitting him. Do you understand? Breath will not work against me, but I can buff myself up all I want. There is no down side.
As a power player, with an emphasis on PvP, I *CANNOT* turn these kinds of bonuses down. I just can't. If you are saying that powerful races only exist as a kind of handicap for weak players, you are definetly wrong. Races should be as balanced as possible, that is the truth. The fact that I want my chracter to be as powerful as possible should *NOT* force me to give up my ability to be unique.

Yes, every race except Gnome and Pixie stinks. They are either much worse, or the same thing except worse. You can clearly measure them on an OBJECTIVE scale and find a clear cut winner. That is not good, or balanced.

The truth hurts, that's why I like it.

~Ocardus/Ridley

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Sep 23, 2004 · 20:58 #20

To Weems, my deepest apologies, I regretted making that post as soon as I got up this morning. There is no excuse for it, but I am trying to quit smoking cigarettes, and I am a little on the testy side the last few days.
I have been on DL about 3 years now and a DM for the last 25, in that time I got my full of players complaining, and you caught the brunt of it. Again, I am sorry I was so rude in my response. But I don’t believe that all the races should be in perfect balance, if they were, why have different races to begin with.
I am not into Player killing or the arena so some of the points made by others did not cross my addled brain. But I have found no race or class that was unable to handle the mobs on DL by themselves, and if an old scatterbrained nut like me can do it, I don’t see why others can’t. As to why most of you don’t know me, I am not surprised at that. I don’t group, use ooc, ask for heals, resurrection, or help. In 3 years the only thing I have asked for is bloodpurge twice. I tried out so many races and classes to learn about their strengths and weakness before I would devote all my time and effort to a single character. Every one that I tried, I had no trouble with, so in the end my race selection was a matter of personal choice. I like elves and they have been my favorite choice for role-playing for the last 30 years. I love DL because it is a more difficult than other Muds I have tried. I believe that it is even easier to level now than when I started, in fact too easy. I would like to see the difficulty level rise, rather than lower, but it seems I am in the minority on that point. In closing I wish to give my apologies to everyone I offended, including Weems, and I promise not to make a post while climbing the walls in the wee hours of the morning wanting a cigarette.
Arureal The absent-minded elf

Tri-Avatar

Sep 23, 2004 · 23:06 #21

I never once suggested perfect balance. Just less extreme races. I don't have any problems with the races being unique. But when they are so incredibly out of balance that I only have two choices when making a new character for PvP, I can tell theres a clear cut problem. They are too different.

You are a DM with 25 years of experience you say? Compare the situation to D&D then. In D&D, the races are not extreme. They are well balanced, especially the base races. You can pick any one you want, and in the long run you wont be significantly hindered. Your racial decision is far more of a roleplay background then a drastic power choice. How you play your character and make your decisions is a far more deciding factor on your power than your race.

This is not true with DL. You could throw 10+ mil in equipment towards a Lizardman, and no matter how uber you got, you will always know in the back of your mind that you would be even *MORE* uber if you had chosen a more powerful race. To my knowledge that doesn't really happen in D&D, even when you choose a race that isnt suited to the class (half-orc mage), when you play long enough your stats will even out.

I can't really see your arguement anymore.

~Ocardus/Ridley

Dual-Avatar

Sep 24, 2004 · 05:20 #22

i think one of the things that celeborn may have overlooked is that melee fighters have shorter cap that magical classes. a pure melee figher is only as good as his equ can offer. A magical class is as good as his equ can offer and whatever his magic may contribute. an additional 7 AR is 21000 enchantment space. with ultra's god knows how much that can add up to. So far we've just alking about AR, there are numerous of other defensive spells. speed spell multiplies everything. If you can attack 2 times for every 1 attack that your opponent makes, it is equivalent to having your Damage, AR multiplied by 2. Your 7 AR bonus is now like a 14 AR bonus, your 300 damage is now a 600 damage. This is only speaking of twice as fast, what about people who are 3x as fast as their opponent simply because of their race and class? When magical classes get a hold on ultras their spells are even more powerful. On the other hand, a melee class will have little use for the ultras. That's is the same as forfeiting one of the best items in the game.

as you know i mostly focus on pk because i see the game as a competition btwn players. I may overlook nonpk areas, but that's something for someone else to point out.

a voider vs. a magical class( assumming same level and same equ). The voider won't stand a chance.

history:
many years ago, melee fighers traded magic for the upper hand in combat. Magic users on the other hand, were weaker in combat, but were rewarded with magic. Today, well you alreayd know...

⚔ Caretaker

Sep 24, 2004 · 06:04 #23

If races apart from Pixie and Gnomes suck, then why do people choose them? Because i DO see other people playing them

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Sep 24, 2004 · 06:45 #24

well, the reason I don't play a pixie or a gnome is partially because I disagree with them as races because they're too cookie cutter-esque.

*stamp* yay, a powerful character
*stamp* yay, a powerful character

I like to put some effort in my character, and if it means that most of the MUD can school me in PvP because of it, so be it.

Believe it or not, some people don't give a hoot about having an "uberly powerful character" so using the argument "if they're so powerful than why isn't everyone blah blah blah" isn't a very strong one at all. We can still say pixies are too powerful and not play one because of it. Some of us are willing to sacrifice power for fun.

Tri-Avatar

Sep 24, 2004 · 11:48 #25

Avestifal wrote:
-snip-
Believe it or not, some people don't give a hoot about having an "uberly powerful character" so using the argument "if they're so powerful than why isn't everyone blah blah blah" isn't a very strong one at all. We can still say pixies are too powerful and not play one because of it. Some of us are willing to sacrifice power for fun.

Exactly my point. Why in the seven flaming hells should have to sacrifice power for fun? That's STUPID. You shouldn't have to.

And yes, I do understand that not all people care about power, but that's not an excuse for the races to not be balanced.

★ Arch-Caretaker

Sep 24, 2004 · 12:59 #26

Just an FYI, after talking to Celeborn yesterday, he has been reading this thread, and is pondering ways to implement some of the suggestions offered. So keep the ideas coming, you aren't going unheard. I can't gaurentee everything you ask for will get in, but your posts definately aren't wasted

Guest

Sep 24, 2004 · 14:32 #27

Hmm... I agree that even though by default of advantages/disadvantages given to pixies/gnomes are better than most other races, however, like what err i think it wuz avestifal said, i like to put some effort into my chars =P. So I guess thats what the challenge in DL is now- to use a purportedly weaker race/class and turn it into something that is WOW.

I think it should be noted that although there are alot of pixies and gnomes etc, at least its heartening to see that not ALL the powerful ones are pixies/gnomes... like Lingolas, Laurana...

Another point is, stop thinking about power.. only a few select people bother abt being the most powerful =P there are other aspects to the game... As long as I can fight a few mobs that i want to fight, i want to whack the asses of ppl i want to whack, i dun really care abt being the most powerful.

★ Arch-Caretaker

Sep 24, 2004 · 15:19 #28

I haven't entirely been keeping up with this thread, but let me offer an idea that will be immensely unpopular:

In my opinion, the game is perfectly easy to play with ANY RACE. Some may need some tweaks to make them more useful, but I feel the game's difficulty isn't really that hard to begin with. The idea should be explored to balance by tweaking gnomes and pixies to be less powerful, while making some more useful bonuses to the weaker races.

The game will be too easy if ALL the races are as powerful as pixies/gnomes currently are. Some races need to be improved, but I honestly believe the gnomes and pixies need to be weakened somewhat as well to truly bring balance.

Making all the races equal isn't the same as providing balance, really. Game balance is far more intricate.

⚔ Caretaker

Sep 24, 2004 · 15:48 #29

Actually I believe all races are balanced right now... Its just people dont understand how to USE the other races to their optimum efficency.

Tri-Avatar

Sep 24, 2004 · 18:33 #30

Sasia wrote:
Another point is, stop thinking about power.. only a few select people bother abt being the most powerful =P there are other aspects to the game... As long as I can fight a few mobs that i want to fight, i want to whack the asses of ppl i want to whack, i dun really care abt being the most powerful.

No. If person A spends X amount of time on character C, and person D spends the same amount of time as person A, on character E, but one picked a Pixie and the other picked a Lizardman, WHY SHOULD THE LIZARDMAN GET A HANDICAP?

If you feel you have reached the level of playing that you need a handicap to have fun, that is an ENTIRELY different issue, and doesn't even belong in this thread. Maybe you could choose various handicaps on character creation, and it could automatically list them in the upper part of your whois, I think that could be cool, like stat penalties, or other various penalties that you could just choose to take if you wanted. But none of that should restrict your race choice! Races should be balanced, heck, it's just a RACE! Think about it!

Zeraphin:

I think you should go back and read some of my posts, because you are completly missing the point as well. Racial balance has absolutly nothing to do with 'easy' or 'hard', it is exactly what I described to Sasia, an issue of equality. Game difficulty can be tweaked by altering the mobs, not the races.

What you are proposing is a classic pendulum swing of power, which I hate to say to you, is very very bad. You see it everywhere, in every game. Something like a race or a class is too powerful so it gets nerfed to the point where a different race or class is better...Then what do people do? They make a new character. Not to say it would be your fault that they made the character, but it isn't the best way to approach the problem.

The only way to fix this *INEVITABLE* problem, is to make ALL the races less extreme. As long as they have extreme abilities, there will be cries and complaints about racial balance issues, caused by the fact that as long as they are extreme, they are impossible to keep balanced. If the racial differences are subtle, then there wont be this problem. Even if one race turns out being more powerful than another, the difference will be so slight that you can just pick whatever one you want without knowing that you are giving yourself a handicap.

If any of you are wondering about my meaning of the word extreme, it is this definition:

3 : situated at the farthest possible point from a center.

With the center being a race with no abilities at all, with all stats at 50. I do not want to see the races be that boring, but subtle stat differences and minor abilities like aquabreath (Lizardman), prospecting (Dwarf), 5% bonus or penalty to magic(Ideas?)...Most if not all of the human starsign bonuses would fall under that category: Subtle.

And then you mentioned that theres a lot more to balance than the races are concerned. Yes, I already adressed that a few posts ago, but of course you mentioned that you hadn't been keeping up with this thread, so I will fill you in on what I said.

I basically said that game balance could be compared to an algrebra problem with 3+ variables in it, with races being just one of those variables. Instead of trying to throw random numbers into the racial variable, and hoping that it will eventually become balanced through trial and error, you could just *ELIMINATE* the variable by making the races play a small roll instead of a large one.

Kiasyn: You are wrong.

~Ocardus/Ridley

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Sep 24, 2004 · 18:36 #31

Ok, because for some reason god HATES me I'm typing this...AGAIN.

(zeraphin ths forums are buggy, if you're not active for a certain amount of time they sign you out and your post is lost cause it says you have to log in, and you lost the post you might have been typing. I'm not enthused.)

A) The races are not perfectly balanced. It's not a matter of playing to there "optimum efficiency". Some are flat out inherently better than others.

B) I agree that leveling in itself is easy and not very hard with any of the races.

C) I'm going into less detail because it was a long arse reply.

Orcs- Feral rage near death, cool, but still dead (as was mentioned above) perhaps just make feral rage like a starsign ability? Or like lay on hands, and it just gives a +2 dam roll p/ level bonus (up to 100) and +5 hp bonus per level up to 250 hp at lvl 50. That would make these guys brawnier and more likely to be played. (granted it wouldn't do much for their looks but no one chooses orcs to look pretty)

Ogre- The bonuses/penalties drive away too many.

Elf- Fine race as it is.

Lizardmen- Aquabreath makes them good lowbie wall punchers...that's about it. Perhaps turn these into Half-Dragons with wings and claws on their hands to use as weapons in the event they don't have one. Maybe a bonus to their mobility to reflect the armor their scales give them, or give them like 30% slash resistance instead.

Gerps- Good the way they are.

Phasians- As I said before do not give back the ability to RW out of battles, that just lets people be cheesy when it comes to fighting. (especially during guildwars etc.) Maybe let them buy pillars at Half-off or something, or let them enchant their sigil tattoo with stuff.

Dwarves- I see nothing wrong with them, the reason I don't play them is I don't like playing short, fat, smelly, subterranean drunkards.

Trolls- I suggest faster limb regen, and higher regen perhaps 1 per level.
Battles are usually over too fast to wait for the limbs to regen.

Pixies- Ditch their Kinshape ability, make them have a disadvantage so that they have to use glory or warmonger to get up to middle sized. This way it's harder for a pixie to play a warrior, though if you want to you could, it'd just eb making it harder on yourself. And drop their magic complexity bonus to +15% and remove their innate MR.

Gnome- Ditch their magic complexity bonus. Gnomes are craftsmen and tinkerers, they make magic items which often blow up in their face (the Magic Resistance is good for protection from that). Perhaps give them some inherent crafting bonus and keep their MR, and their free identify.

Humans as a race are cool, I have played practically every starsign at least to lvl 30. all except for "the shadow, the beauty, and the elemental ones" the starsigns are a good concept problem is; too many of the bene's are only really noticeable early on.

Here are my suggestions:

Void: This is a well balanced penalty, no magic against you, no magic for you. But the prob is, a Gnome (as weemster pointed out) is practically a voider on its own w/ the ability to cast spells. Same with "The Shield".

Avatar: This only serves an RP purpose, I have no idea how to fix this, but there's no real benefit.

Tower: Too little, maybe make it 12 spaces of sight and the mobility and you got an actually useful ability for exploring.

Furnace: Change the name, keep the penalty, make it 8 or 10 complexity. This would provide a suitable advantage vs. the other classes. One that could combat pixies and gnome-ness.

Unicorn: I've played one of these (briefly) and I can vouch that the 25% damage is pretty much a death sentence. I suggest making it 10% more damage instead of 25%. And maybe increase mana cost to 2/3 of the actual cost.

Clover: Good skill, leave it as it is.

The elemental starsigns: Pretty useless really...
I suggest keeping the current abilities they have and ADD:
Water: Aqua Breath
Cyclone: Astral Walk for free.
Sun: Regen during daytime (1 per 2 levels up to 25)
Landslide: 2 dam reduction per level up to 100

Moon: Odd, either remove it or instead make it so this starsign is effected by lycanthropy and has a werewolf form that adds 3 feet to height and gives +50 dam roll bonus +2 str +2 dex +2 con and -8 char.
Perhaps Wolf form only during night? Also- Humans only would bring more human characters to the game.

Fist: +2 ar and +10 dam roll is only really noticeable early on. I suggest instead of +10, make it +2 dam roll per level up to 100. Not a catastrophically large ability, and makes it a desireable one.

The Shadow: Invisibility? pretty useless. It's not really needed early on, and later on you get it on EQ. I suggest that when you turn on the starsign it gives the character sneak and hide.

Guardian Spirit: This is very useless, mostly because those exp losses don't really hurt. I suggest no exp loss penalty to fleeing or dieing etc, however, for every 100 points lost, you lose 50 favor. So if you lost 5k exp you'd lose 2.5k favor. That way the Spirit seems live a little perk from your deity.

Comet: I made a "viking" character who had this ability and it's only noticeable when you're waiting 8 seconds between attacks. It should get better with level, 1 speed per level up to 50. that would make this useful even in epics and wouldn't give anyone anything they don't get from juices or spells.

Hospic: Good ability, even if you're not a pure fighter, sometimes it helps to have a quick hit of HP that's better than your heal can provide. My chief complaint is that there's no provision for vampirized hospics. Make it work with blood as well.

The Shield: This ability is good, despite weemster's distaste over it. I have played one, it basically gives you a voider's ability but the ability to cast spells. The penalties aren't so severe that they can't be worked around.

The Reed: Pretty much useless, the bene's are far too small. Make it an 8 - 10 mobility bonus and you've got yourself a useful starsign.

The Beauty: I really see no reason why this starsign should even exist. I'd say that its ability should be that you don't have to pay any taxes at all to make it worthwhile.

Anyway, the races aren't perfectly balanced and here's why:

A level 50/50/50 warrior styled troll would easily lose to a level 50/50/50 pixie if they both had the same eq, and were both of roughly the same skill level (which is quite likely to happen). If they were perfectly/sufficiently balanced, this would not happen unless the troll was payed very poorly and the pixie very well. An example of how evident this was was when the oracles were able to crush everyone and everything simply by spamming breath. And then the conjurers came along which were pretty much slightly slower pixies who liked to use swords. When one race can be played by people of low skill easily enough to thump on most of the veterans like they were level 40, that is not balanced. I don't see how being able to set up triggers or tickers or macros or whatever you want to call it so that you "c breath" twice, then throw in a heal, then c breath twice again and do that through the battle makes a character as balanced as say a troll that has to beat on something for 10 times as long because the monster regens too fast.

And in the end, this isn't about difficulty in the game, all races are easy to level up in the game, because leveling only takes certain skills: The ability to think, the ability to find the areas to level, the ability to find what eq you need, and the ability to buy healing potions and bandages.

★ Arch-Caretaker

Sep 24, 2004 · 18:42 #32

Weakening some races and breaking up others at the same time, balancing in the middle, is a far better solution than bringing everything up to the exact same level of "powerful", then balancing the ENTIRE game around that fact.

There are well over 15000 individual mobiles. We can balance the races to be slightly less powerful but equal, without having to otherwise alter fundamental code or spend hundreds of hours altering every area.

The reason you so often see "nerfing" of things like races or classes is because the sheer scale of balancing the rest of the game around super powerful (And continuously growing more powerful, it can be assumed) races or classes.

If race group A is middle power, Race group B is super powerful (gnomes, pixies), and race group C is near uselessly weak, it seems the best course would be to adjust group b downward to match group a, and to bring group c up to group a.

If group B is so much more fundamentality powerful compared to other races that for sheer easy of gameplay they are chosen most often, they need to be weakened, even if just a little. Extreme nerfing doesn't have to occur, but you're basicly saying that its better to completely redesign entire systems within the game rather than weaken a single small facet.

To address the algrebra problem, eliminating the variable can be done many different ways. It is obvious to me that bringing all races up to the level gnomes and pixies enjoy would require the entire game to be altered for balance and difficult.

For 6-7 years I've worked on game balance in MUDs and other projects. Players always seem to think balancing should only makes things MORE POWERFUL, never weaker. Its an understandable sentiment, it sucks to be made less powerful, but making everything rest JUST AS POWERFUL is not really balancing. You've balanced the races, and unbalanced the rest of the game.

Avatar

Sep 24, 2004 · 19:00 #33

true but I personally am under the impression that pixies won't be fixed, and they already unbalance the game.

Tri-Avatar

Sep 24, 2004 · 19:02 #34

Holy crap Zeraphin. No offense, but I just lost a lot of respect for you, because throughout this entire thread, I have been suggesting that...

ALL RACES BE MADE MUCH MUCH WEAKER.

And now you are implying that I want to see them all uber powerful. NO! I want them to be reduced in power to a point where they all have LITTLE TINY bonuses, enough so that they are unique, but do not affect your choice to a high degree.

If you please, READ what I post before insulting my knowledge of the concept of balance.

Thank you,
~Ocardus/Ridley

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Sep 24, 2004 · 19:06 #35

One last post on why I don’t think the races need to be brought into balance, and the history of what happened to D&D is the perfect example, thanks for reminding me of it Weems, although Avestifal already has grasped of my point, let me continue. Yes 3rd Edition D&D has brought the races into balance, but this was not always so. When D&D first came out, in 1974 I think it was, the entire game was contained in 3 small pamphlets you could slip in your coat pocket, go to a friends house and play. A fun and challenging adventure could be made up on the fly, with little preparation on the DM’s part. But the races and classes in the game were far from balanced on purpose. Humans were the supreme race with no limit on the level the could reach or the damage they could inflict, it was not uncommon to see level 50 to 100 humans whereas the other races were limited in not only their level, but the classes they could chose. An elf was limited to level 11 as a mage, meaning his fireball could only do 11d6 of dam Vs 50d6 or more for a human mage. The game was also weighted in favor of Good Vs Evil. New players were advised to start with a human. Once they learned to play well, or grew tired of blasting whole towns with their fireballs, they could play one of the more challenging races. There was no need to tweak the monsters with this setup.

D&D gained in popularity and people started meeting to play at Gencon, a D&D convention of sorts. But players were not happy with the weaker races so they were allowed to rise a little higher in level and the endless line of additions, supplements, etc started. New and more powerful monsters were needed to keep the game challenging. Some of the new versions of the game came and went so quick that no one noticed them. Does anyone remember the Basic D&D game system? By the end of 2nd Edition D&D it was completely out of hand. A collector friend of mine has an entire bookcase devoted just to 2nd Edition. The game play had become a joke with players running around the outer planes slaying the Gods. That was not the only effect of the changes to the game, gone were the days of a fun and challenging gaming session on a moments notice. Now the DM needed to work for a week to set up an adventure for a night of gaming, unless he was running a game for beginners. That brings us up to 3rd Edition.

When Wizards of the Coast announced that they had bought the rights to D&D they stated their plans for fixing this mess on their web site. They stated that they were going to bring back simplicity and balance to the game. No longer will you need a vast array of books and conflicting rules to play. That noble thought did not last long. Soon new feats, classes and prestige classes were added. But the classes and races are balanced. This is a good thing for those new to the game. However an experienced player can quickly build a character that can slay all in their path unless the DM goes to a great deal of work to make it challenging for them. To keep experienced players in check the DM must apply the player character template to every monster and NPC that the players may cross. If you have made a character for 3rd Edition, you know how much work this is. Now imagine having to do this for 50 or more monsters and NPCs and then he must keep track of all this during the game, it puts a tremendous workload on the DM. One that most inexperienced DM’s can not handle and the older ones consider not worth the effort. Which is why I and about 7 other old DM’s and players I know now play on DL. Take workload on the DM and change it to workload on the server and caretakers and you see where I am headed.

Now how does this relate to DL? When I first started playing here gnomes were considered one of the worthless races. I did not get to play one before they were tweaked to improve them. Before that Pixies and Elves were considered the greatest races of Alora. Yeah pixies still rock, I deleted mine cause he was BORING to play, no challenge at all. The first D&D was not balanced because players are not balanced, and it worked because it offered something for everyone. Some like to reach the pinnacle of power, others like a challenge, and new players need a chance to live long enough to learn how to play without getting discouraged. Races and classes may need minor tweaking to reach this end, just lets not over do it. Perhaps we should put a difficulty rating on races like we did on classes. Not all change is bad, the mini map has saved me from having to hand draw maps of all the areas, though I do wish it did not show the entrance to some of the previously hidden areas. The new craft system has made every race and class more powerful Vs mobs, regardless of how they compare to each other. Feedback from players to the caretakers happen at a much faster rate on DL than it did for D&D. Players will always ask for more, but giving them what they want often leads to other problem. I do not want DL to go down the same path that D&D did, cause there is no other MUD out there that can offer me the quality of game play we have here. In the end though it is Celeborn alone who decides what changes are best, I just want him to know that not all of us want super characters.

Thank you Zeraphin, Kiasyn, and Sasia. You all posted after I started composing this post at home, and pasting it in, I type real slow so that is easier for me. You all see some of my points, but I am posting it anyway, it took to long to do. And I again wish to apologize for being so rude on my first post.
Arureal the absent-minded elf

Tri-Avatar

Sep 24, 2004 · 19:15 #36

Arureal, please refer to the 'Sasia' section on my post thats right below kiasyn's little quip. The part about handicaps.

Thank you.
~Ocardus/Ridley

★ Arch-Caretaker

Sep 24, 2004 · 19:20 #37

weems wrote:
Holy crap Zeraphin. No offense, but I just lost a lot of respect for you

I'm sorry if you feel so.

weems wrote:
And now you are implying that I want to see them all uber powerful. NO! I want them to be reduced in power to a point where they all have LITTLE TINY bonuses, enough so that they are unique, but do not affect your choice to a high degree.

I'm not responding just to you, though it may have seemed that way since I posted immediately afterwards. I post from work a good deal and today has been a busy day, excuse me if I skim posts somewhat.

I constantly (Or did in the past, less so in recent times) strive to make the game harder. It used to be that there were tons of mobiles, prior to Epics and such, that took 7-8 tri-avatars to kill. To my knowledge, there are none of those now. Hence, my main point was that any balancing will have to include weakening of Pixie and gnome.

I was mainly responding to you in regards to stating that weakened the most powerful races is a horrible problem. "Nerfing" is a necesasry part of the balancing process, unfortunately in most games it goes to far and always involved strengthening somethign else at the same, ie, just switching which is most powerful. Balancing has to ALWAYS be done in steps. If you are weakening something, you HAVE to re-evaluate things afterwards. You can't say, take 50% str here and give 50% there. You've overbalanced, gone too far. Take 50%, THEN, if there is still an issue, take further action. You can't do too much at once.

From my position, as well, nothing can be looked at as simply "balancing races" ... The basic concept of what your saying is understandable.. Make all races equal, and they no longer matter because any of them will work just as well as another. But you can't do that just by itself, you have to balance them in regards to the rest of the game as well. Maybe its a two step process, but game difficulty is part of the balance and cannot be ignored. Too often it is.

It peeves me greatly whenever I hear someone say "DL is so much harder than other muds"... I simply can't understand them, DL is easy as hell in a lot of regards, especially compared to stock SMAUG.

Its impossible for me to look at this problem as seperate from basic game balance, because its what my job entails. I had no hand in most of the bonuses that the races currently enjoy, I was on hiatus at the time. Most of them are extreme, such as the magical abilities of pixie and gnomes. The first step is to bring those two in line with the other races. Then you can look at, as a whole, making races play a smaller role.

Tri-Avatar

Sep 24, 2004 · 19:26 #38

Zeraphin, I am getting the feeling you would agree with most, if not ALL of my prior points that I made in this thread...

Please..PLEASE, go back and read my posts, completly, don't skim.

★ Arch-Caretaker

Sep 24, 2004 · 19:52 #39

weems wrote:
Zeraphin, I am getting the feeling you would agree with most, if not ALL of my prior points that I made in this thread...

Please..PLEASE, go back and read my posts, completly, don't skim.

Find me some free time

A check for about $1000 would do, I could take a week or two off work to more fully read all posts

Tri-Avatar

Sep 24, 2004 · 20:26 #40

Zeraphin wrote:
weems wrote:
Zeraphin, I am getting the feeling you would agree with most, if not ALL of my prior points that I made in this thread...

Please..PLEASE, go back and read my posts, completly, don't skim.
Find me some free time A check for about $1000 would do, I could take a week or two off work to more fully read all posts

PFFFffft...It wouldnt take that long. 10 mins. Probably less. Read them tonight after you get out of work...Please.

~Ocardus/Ridley

Avatar

Sep 24, 2004 · 23:30 #41

Weems, I got the wrong impression from your earlier post also, and I did read it, otherwise I would not have made that first stupid post of mine. So it is not Zeraphin’s fault he got the wrong impression also. Now that I know better from your latter posts, I will quit harping on the subject. Perhaps we all should take more care reviewing our posts before we put them up. Besides the fact that I am poor on a keyboard, I don’t want to make another mistake like I did with my first post. So I am doing my posts on word at home, and then pasting it to the forum. Don’t want to make myself look stupid too many times in one day.

Arureal the absent minded elf

Newbie

Sep 26, 2004 · 07:20 #42

Ocardus, this thread too me about 30 minutes to read.

probably because its 2 am now. im tired. went groundhog hunting all day today on 4 hours of sleep.

Here is my input on races:

a 20(+!)% bonus in anything is just entirely too much. 20% of 100 is 20. 120 is considerably more than 100. you can apply this to any race that has a 20% or more skill bonus.

Sure, a big assed bonus like that looks nice on paper, i agree. pixies should be uber spell casters. i agree from a rp standpoint that they should have a bonus. but a bonus that large throws everything out of whack because the number is entirely too large. 20% of something is a lot.

what happened if 20% of your pay was cut, zera?

or if you got 25% more?

The biggest reason i picked a Half Elf years ago was because of the RP aspect. I like being a crossbreed (excuse my language, but I am one in real life.

). I dont mind being a race that has few (!) bonuses. It allows me to sit back and, from my point of view, take in the sights. heres what i gathered:

as previously stated, most human starsigns are worthless. i completely agree more. what seems to appear happened to these starsigns is celeborn was either tired when he did it, or he had a REALLY, REALLY cool idea that he either hasnt had time to finish or just never got around to it, or completely forgot about. I'm human too, dude. I make mistakes sometimes also. Thats part of learning.

Making a mistake and not correcting your mistake 2 years after making said mistake doesnt make things better.

Aurureal, Gnomes have been good ever since they got those bonuses. You werent around for the uber gnome people. People just went for races they know had bonuses (pixie?) or races that had cool (!) stats (irl runewalk O COOL).

Ill end it as this.

Meh is a half elf. he gains following bonuses:

Innate infrared vision.
a BIG map. i can see almost 50 spaces across and 25 spaces vertical, day or night, when i am flying (why do you think i can find stuff so damned fast when i am on him ?:)). my map is probably about half the size of an immortal map, and that makes me laugh.

If i would have rebirthed meh into an elf, i would be a hell of a lot more powerful right now. period. if i rebirthed into a pixie, i would be even more powerful. if i was a gnome, well..you get the picture (this always made me wish that i did rebirth, but now im pretty glad that i didnt).

My complexities cap at 59 with no int/wis gear. 63 with 50 int/wis. no big deal. if i was a different race, id have that standard complexity with a bonus (a 20% bonus with 63 complexity is >>>12.6<<< complexity. 12.6! with 25% it would be 15.75. im not sure if the fractions count as 1 or if they are just floor()'d, but a 12 and +15 complexity bonus is absolutely too large of a bonus if you want a 'balanced game.' please correct me if im wrong im my math. once again its 2am

i agree that unfortunately, part of balancing is nerfing. unfortunately again, your job as immortals is to balance the game as best as you can without pissing the players off to much. when you upset people, they find somewhere else to play. i can name at least 7 players off hand who now play some where else because what was said to them about changes by immortals. maybe they deserved to go? they probably mouthed off anyways. i hope you understand the point im trying to make (sometimes what is said about the change (smart mouthed immortals. im not going to name names. i respect you all too much to start pointing fingers. try to take this as a collective 'my bad,' please.) is worth than the actual change itself. i love what you guys have done to the game. i bet you that im not the only one. i also bet you that there are just as many people on the other side of the room though)

This is just me ranting. Ill get to solutions (! omg, its meh, actually THINKING ABOUT SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE. thats as sign of the apocylapse. dont say i didnt warn you) after i go to bed. I am so tired right now.

OHAY -Meh TEH INTERNET IRL

fake edit: didnt realize how long this post was. sorry for the book

Avatar

Sep 26, 2004 · 14:22 #43

Sorry to interrupt the flame war, but I have a few things I would like to interject. Forgive me if I lack a certain coherency, but I'm sleepy. Also, I skimmed the first 10 posts and it seemed to be the same thing repeated over and over again... I dont want to name names, but c'mon people, the horse is dead. Quit kicking it, you made your point.

So, I'm gonna make this quick since its 6:30 am and I still haven't gone to bed yet *yawns*

1. Sasia - awwww I feel all warm and fuzzy now. you think im powerful

*dances*

2. Pixies/gnomes - No thoughts as of yet. My gnome is a level 46 rogue and by the time I get around to epic levels with her, the bonuses for gnomes will prolly be nerfed. Pixies? Pfft. They're only good when I manage to catch one in my flyswatter. Crunchy wings though. Very good deep fried in batter. YUM!

3. Elves - I have one. I like my elf. And once I get her levelled up she'll be badass

4. Phasians - whee. im blue. im smurfy. I have a jewel in my head. Aside from the runewalk capabilities, Phasians are just blue humans. I think at minimum the stats should be changed a bit, give phasians some stat bonuses, theyre so bland and even. Oh yeah, and the idea of RW out of battle? Cool in theory when it comes to fighting mobs. But I played pk for a number of years, and I remember how frustrating it was chasing after someone who fled, and then recalled. It's even worse when you cant even catch the person before they recall, they just touch their forehead and wiggle their nose *poof* they're safe in their cit. Excuse the crudeness of my language, but thats a pansy ass move. Please don't put it on. Or if you do, disable it for when fighting pvp.

5. I've never really played any other races. I'd love to pull random unsupported opinions out of my butt, unfortunately for y'all I'm tired. So, my official stance on everything else is, "No Comment"

And although I do wish now that I made a different race for Laurana, I'm sure that in time, the uber races will be powered down, and the people who are searching for the next big power class/race combo, will forget about their e50 swashies, and move on to something else. Meanwhile, I'll just keep building up my existing chars, evolve with the changes and still be more badass then the pixies/gnomes at the end of the day

In conclusion, (crap, i just realized I was intending to make this quick.... I hope I at least managed to form coherent sentences in my delusive, sleep-addled brain. If I didn't manage to achieve this feat, please excuse it on the account of my sleepiness.)

oh yeah, in conclusion. Elves are good as they are. Phasians are blue humans. Gnomes are overpowered. And Pixies taste good dipped in batter and fried.

hrm... i think i remembered anything.

You may now return to your originally programmed flame war

Retired Caretaker

Sep 26, 2004 · 16:27 #44

i gotta agree with laurie, and say, don't mess with my elf, she is pretty like she is, and i like her.

i don't require stat bonuses and magical resistance, i like having pointy ears, they are cute.

i also like my human voider, she is also cute, and dislikes magic, magic scares her, bad mages!

i also have lizardwomen, ogres, trolls, and dwarves, all of whom i enjoy playing.

Tri-Avatar

Sep 27, 2004 · 13:15 #45

Elves are still too powerful. Why do you people keep denying this?

Just because they are a mediocre and well rounded race in comparison to the other races right now doesn't mean they are well balanced when looked at as an individual.

Another thing to look at. Pixies are the best at magic, this should always be true regardless of the current racial balances.

Elves have +10% complexity. Which means pixies would probably have at least 15%?

Going along with that, Gnomes would probably have a magical ability less than elves, and all the other races messed with in some slight way.

There is a problem with this. A 10 - 15% bonus to magic is still uber enough to make Elves and Pixies better than any other race.Then Pixies and Elves become the best races. How is anything any different? This does not solve the balance problem of races.

+/- 5% or so should be PLENTY enough of a difference. It would keep them unique, and the difference between the races on a balance standpoint would be low enough so that you could pick whichever one you wanted without placing a handicap on yourself just because you picked a 'weak' race. Because there wouldnt BE weak races, they would be rougly even, or even enough so that it made no difference.

Suggested complexity bonuses:
Pixies: +5% magic complexity
Elves: +2% magic and +5% nature complexity
Trolls: -5% magic complexity
Gnomes: baseline

Retired Caretaker

Sep 27, 2004 · 17:25 #46

forgive me, i was under the impression you were saying elves sucked, my bad

if i had to choose, i would choose elves as a template race, and build all the others around them

Tri-Avatar

Sep 27, 2004 · 20:14 #47

Alright, I guess it's time to list my ideas for the new and vastly less extreme and far more balanced races!

Not only would these make your racial decision far more cosmetic, but it would increase the difficulty of the game for the better races. Which, as a lot of caretakers and quite a few players have expressed, is a good thing.

Human Starsigns:
Voids: Leave as is, but make sure they can use regen potions and such.
Avatar: The problem with this race has more to do with the way favor works and less with the race itself. If there were other, more common ways to drop below 0 favor than changing deities, then this could be a balanced race.
Tower: +5 innate mobility, and 5 additional spaces on the map.
Furnace: +3 complexity to all.
Unicorn: Leave as is.
Clover: Leave as is.
Waterfall: Innate 99% instead of 25%, and in addition, make it not count against your resistance cap.
Cyclone: Same as waterfall.
Landslide: Same as waterfall.
Sun: Same as waterfall.
Moon: Just get rid of this one.
Fist: 2 AR innate, and +2 damage roll per level, ending at 2 AR and 100 damage roll at 50, totalling 21,000 enchant space. Thanks Avestifal.
Guardian Spirit: Remove maybe?
Comet: This is the one of the two that I no real ideas with.
Shadow: Remove.
Hospic: Leave as is.
Shield: Leave them the MR, and give them +2 mobility at the start, and 1 damage reduction per level until 50.
Reed: Remove.
Beauty: Remove.

Troll: -5% complexity. Leave the rest, might need to nerf their limb regen?

Dwarf: Leave as is.

Phasian: Make the sigil enchantable, with 6k space, that cannot be severed off. In addition, give them a command that allows them to 'cover their sigil', that gives them +6 luck for 10 mins, once per hour, and it would also raise their max luck by 6.

Orc: Leave the feral rage, and give them +5 HP per level up to 250. Thanks Avestifal

Gerp: Leave as is.

Lizardmen: This is the other one I had no good ideas with. Maybe some sort of tail attack? It would have to be pretty decent and usable though...Hmm...

Ogre: +5% Body magic, +2 Hp per level, up to 100.

Elf: +2% magical complexities, +5% nature magic.

Pixie: +5% magical complexities, leave the rest.

Gnome: Kill off the complexity bonus, leave the rest as is.

And that about sums it up, despite Comets and Lizardmen. Any ideas people? Comments? Questions? Please, feel free!

~Ocardus/Ridley

Dual-Avatar

Sep 27, 2004 · 22:14 #48

This is what i think

Human Starsigns:
Voids: Leave as is
Avatar: ?
Tower: +50 innate Damage Reduction, and 7 additional spaces on the map.
Furnace: +3 complexity to all.
Unicorn: Leave as is.
Clover: Leave as is.
Waterfall: Innate 60% instead of 25%
Cyclone: Same as waterfall.
Landslide: Same as waterfall.
Sun: Same as waterfall.
Moon: ?
Fist:?
Guardian Spirit: summon a gardian spirit at will to distract enemies
Comet: ?
Shadow: auto hide and make it undetectable unless the shadow soes a social, emote, move, or say something in a room.
Hospic: ?
Shield: Leave them the MR, and give them +2 mobility at the start, and 2 damage reduction per level until 50.
Reed:?
Beauty: pay no 75% less tax when shop at npc shops...kinda like having 50 charisma

Troll: -20% complexity. Faster limb regen. 1 regeneration per level till level 50. -20% fire, +20% ice. 1 Damage Reduction per level till level 50. lower intell, charisma, and wisdom upon character creation.

Dwarf: ability to inspect 2 walls away. lower gems/ores pop rate as before and give a +5% to all mining skills.

Phasian: ability rune rw out of battle with time delay

Orc: extra HP, Feral Rage should kick in randomly not near death.

Gerp: what's a gerp?

Lizardmen: aqua breath. acquire trolls regeneration power, but very slowly. Also, no blood lost from losing limbs. In addition, have the ability to blend in the sourrounding(i dont know how this will work but it sounds cool). -10% to all elemental spells(like fire/water...) because cold blooded animals cant control their body temperature so they get screwed.

Ogre: i dont know what an ogre is. ?

Elf: Keep as they are.

Pixie: -30% wind. -immune to Earthquate if they are not already. +20% complexities. + major mobility bonus. + intell, +wisdom, +charisma, +dex, - strengths, -25% in all physical resistance (imagine a pixie the size of a mouse get slam with a giant granite hammer...)

Gnome: ?

I know it's not perfect, but that's what i have in mind.

Tri-Avatar

Sep 27, 2004 · 22:18 #49

I like my setup better =P

⚔ Caretaker

Sep 27, 2004 · 23:45 #50

Lingolas I have modified my pixie with glory so that it is 10'10"... so stop basing pixies on size... since it can be modded

Dual-Avatar

Sep 27, 2004 · 23:49 #51

My pixie is 19'2"...20' soon

I like warmonger.

⚔ Caretaker

Sep 28, 2004 · 00:51 #52

Just a short question, it is something that has bothered me for awhile. How can a 19 ft pixie, that still weighs around 30-40 lbs, so any real damage? I mean wouldn't a stiff wind blow them over?:)

⚔ Caretaker

Sep 28, 2004 · 00:59 #53

same as a troll thats 40 pounds

Dual-Avatar

Sep 28, 2004 · 08:01 #54

You are 9'1" and weigh 263 pounds.

⚔ Caretaker

Sep 28, 2004 · 13:01 #55

This is what i think

Troll: Scrap em
Dwarf: Scrap em
Phasian: Scrap em
Orc: Scrap em
Gerp: Scrap em
Lizardmen: Scrap em
Ogre: Scrap em
Elf: Scrap em
Pixie: Keep em
Gnome: Scrap em

OK I like this setup because it means -I- dont have to adapt! YAY

Avatar

Oct 03, 2004 · 18:49 #56

Here is an idea that might bring the races into a more realistic balance, I thought I wold post to get some feedback on. I got the idea from an earlier post that stated how little difference there was between a pixie’s HP, mana, movement, and any other race with the same classes. I gave this some thought, and I think I know why this is so. The bonus to Hp, etc. seems to cap at 18 when leveling to tri-av. This is a very easy stat to reach even with the most basic mob eq.

What if the bonus to HP, mana, and movement was capped at 25 and a 2 for 1 race penalty/bonus applied. A pixie with –4 to con would get –8 to this cap for a max HP bonus of 17 to HP when making a level. Only 50 points less than the max they can get now. But the races with a high con bonus could get 500 more hit points than a pixie by the time they made it to tri-av, provided they got good eq along the way. This would make a noticeable difference between the races at epic levels. But with the amount of damage received at this level of play, not too great a difference.

Well, its out there for you all to discuss, let me hear what you think, I am sure you will.

One last thought, the races could be given a difficulty rating, just like we do now for classes, so new players will not make a race choice they may be unhappy with latter.

Arureal The absent-minded Elf

Avatar

Oct 08, 2004 · 02:24 #57

Okay okay. Now, I've read a bunch of this .. stuff, though I didn't read all of it.. because I don't want to. Because it bores me to read the same thing over,and over, and because I really don't have the bloody time.

Now. Kiasyn. Please, if you don't have anything productive to post, DON'T POST. Your just going to anger people.. like me. People that don't want to see random..... whatever the opposite of serious is.. (I'm really freakin tired) among so much serious, well written posts.

And. Don't flame each other. There is no need for that. Our opinions are going to differ, that's life. Don't flame over it.

Now. Gnomes and Pixies are too powerful.
Elfs are alright.
I have a voider, but I don't play him much.. he's too freakin slow, and I like magic.

Now, I know the most about phasians than I do about any other race, as Tuler, my main is a phasian.

Now I looooooooooooooooooooved RW outta battles. I didn't use it too often, but I did use it. It was very, VERY handy. It was removed. Now we have rw without a pillar... this.. allows.. us to cast recall...... great.

No more flaming. It's totally pointless. No more crappy posts. That's why I posted this...

Races need to be balanced. Very much.

Retired Caretaker

Oct 08, 2004 · 15:48 #58

and i will point out, lizardmen have more than just 'affected aqua breath' as a special ability

for those of you who have not figured it out, then too bad, but lizardmen and elves are a very well balanced class by themselves.

Tri-Avatar

Oct 08, 2004 · 21:41 #59

Isabelle wrote:
and i will point out, lizardmen have more than just 'affected aqua breath' as a special ability

for those of you who have not figured it out, then too bad, but lizardmen and elves are a very well balanced class by themselves.

No they arent. You are wrong. Just because you are an immortal doesn't mean you are always right. Many times I have proven you wrong, and when I do, the only thing that ends up happening is you ignore it from that point forward.

I dont care how prideful people are in playing their races, look at it objectivly, and you see the truth.

Read this thread a few more times, Isabelle. The races are not equal.
End of story.

Retired Caretaker

Oct 09, 2004 · 00:30 #60

since you obviously are ignorant to lizardman abilities, i will again say, lizardmen and elves are equally balanced by themselves.

oh, and btw, the only reason why i eventually stop responding to your flames, are simply because hey, i dont much care, i do my best to explain to people reading how things are, once i have accomplished that, i leave it to them to figure out what they want to do.
You will invariably always contradict me for the sole purpose of attempting to start a fight, and i'm sure pretty much everyone recognizes that.

Tri-Avatar

Oct 09, 2004 · 01:52 #61

I don't start fights, I just lay down the facts. This thread proves that.

I time and time again just responded how it is, if you can't read it and see it how it is, thats not my problem. I feel like I am repeating myself, please go back and read my posts, as you obviously either skimmed them or didn't read them at all.

And you keep mentioning lizardman abilities. Wow, big deal? Who cares?

If they are on par with Elves, they are too powerful. Every single race is unbalanced except a few, which you would understand well if you read my posts.

Avatar

Oct 09, 2004 · 05:49 #62

Long live the Gith, fools!

Actually, a LOT is imbalanced on this MUD. A LOT. You might as well scrap everything, cept code, and I'll explain why.

A good portion of content on this MUD is left over from its SMAUG days. But it's no longer SMAUG, it's JADE- so it automatically doesn't mesh well.

Every time you change something in an established medium, you will ALWAYS unbalance something else. Always.

Classes are almost meaningless, considering you can pick just about any 3 and still be a productive player, and races are totally outta whack (to say the least).

Let's not even get started on equipment and mobs. A large portion of items/mobs have become either completely useless, or f---ed up. Especially with removal of anti-align flags everyone pretty much ends up the same (not saying that a lack of anti-flags is bad, only it's been done in a system that uses it to balance itself).

The core of the MUD has changed, and the content surrounding it hasn't.* This is the problem. And it's a large undertaking to fix.

So instead of whining about one race being more powerful than another, aim to fix everything.

*(EDIT: I realised this statement isn't completely true. A lot of content has changed, actually, so lemme rephrase this:
The core of the MUD has changed, and not all of the content surrounding it has changed with it.)

Retired Caretaker

Oct 09, 2004 · 06:16 #63

yup, personally, i wouldnt mind totally changing everything, but that decision is celeborns, and i'm sure there will be 'ALOT' of complainers if we even mentioned it

heck, i was threatened and insulted daily, just because of the combat change

but ya, i'd like to see a huge ground breaking change, start from scratch kinda type idea

classless, no eq restrictions (except in very rare cases), very minimal race adjustments.
replace the whole 'increase your skills by practicing them' and replace it with 'spend experience points to increase skills'

Avatar

Oct 09, 2004 · 06:31 #64

The only thing I would probably want to be transferred over would be guilds. Leader positions secured.

It'd help in the long-run for the MUD. The true players will still come back for the game itself. I would not be opposed to this, and would probably begin playing again. (Not necessarily a pro for some, ha.)

Newbie

Oct 09, 2004 · 07:32 #65

Isabelle wrote:
replace the whole 'increase your skills by practicing them' and replace it with 'spend experience points to increase skills'

if i wanted to play diablo2, i would. i dont. i like playing here.

all that needs to be done is the race bonuses re-evaluated and then the class bonuses re-evaluated. and then the gear situation. in that order.

dont base the revamps around elves. you guys need to tune the bonus numbers down, seriously. 20-25% of anything is too much. honestly.

but please, in whatever change you make, dont make it so everyone has to go and make new characters. no one likes doing that. honest.

Avatar

Oct 09, 2004 · 08:43 #66

Chances are it won't happen. So don't sweat it.

Just from a developmental point of view. Best case scenario.

Tri-Avatar

Oct 09, 2004 · 14:38 #67

Meh is correct.

Balance needs to be taken one step at a time.

If you do everything all at once, you have the same problem as before, you will have balance problems that need to be repaired one at a time.

Even Zeraphin has stated the same in this thread. You cannot do it all at once, every problem needs to be adressed one at a time.

Avatar

Oct 09, 2004 · 22:45 #68

If we did a classless system wouldn't that involve a Pwipe? And didn't Cele say he would NEVER do that? Cause.. if we did a classless or raceless or whatever system... then... the old chars would either have to be destroyed, or could be kept, but that would be a lil odd..

I doubt there would be an isabelle sized chage (the size she wants), though it seems that Isa is very, very into changing the entire mud.. but that really hasn't happened... but isa, your bound to get complaints with any change.

Retired Caretaker

Oct 10, 2004 · 01:24 #69

yeah, its no biggy, i'm just dreaming anyways

and you're correct, theres no real need to wipe players, even if there were ground breaking changes, celeborn would just code in a conversion code to bring old players in line with the new way.

Avatar

Oct 10, 2004 · 06:27 #70

weems wrote:
Balance needs to be taken one step at a time.

If you do everything all at once, you have the same problem as before, you will have balance problems that need to be repaired one at a time.

Even Zeraphin has stated the same in this thread. You cannot do it all at once, every problem needs to be adressed one at a time.

I beg to differ. There is always more than one method for any means. However, what I described would be the most effecient, cut-and-dry method. I said an engineer's dream (back to the drawing board, would be the common phrase). I'm not saying it's practical in all situations. Especially when dealing with an established playerbase.

The magic system works. It's because the previous spells were completely scrapped and redone as a whole (and slowly tweaked over time). But the rest of the MUD? Races/classes, all thrown out of whack because of it.

The crafting system works (the new one, anyway). But the effect of that would be old in-game items getting outta whack.

Follow me so far? Isabelle would like to start from scratch because it'd be like starting over with EVERYTHING. Would everything be balanced automatically? No, but it could be far more balanced than it is, since every step would be considerate of an existing factor. The MUD can be evaluated as a whole rather than little bits at a time, which is where one begins to lose sight of it all.

Could you balance it bit by bit? Yeah. Sure. But eventually you're going to have to change something someone doesn't agree with anyways. It's pointless to argue otherwise. And if you change things bit by bit, you'll find it's much harder to accomplish, much more time consuming in the long run.

Since I've hijacked this thread to kingdom-come, I apologize.

Tri-Avatar

Oct 10, 2004 · 13:16 #71

Jorelani wrote:
weems wrote:
Balance needs to be taken one step at a time.

If you do everything all at once, you have the same problem as before, you will have balance problems that need to be repaired one at a time.

Even Zeraphin has stated the same in this thread. You cannot do it all at once, every problem needs to be adressed one at a time.
I beg to differ. There is always more than one method for any means. However, what I described would be the most effecient, cut-and-dry method. I said an engineer's dream (back to the drawing board, would be the common phrase). I'm not saying it's practical in all situations. Especially when dealing with an established playerbase.

The magic system works. It's because the previous spells were completely scrapped and redone as a whole (and slowly tweaked over time). But the rest of the MUD? Races/classes, all thrown out of whack because of it.

The crafting system works (the new one, anyway). But the effect of that would be old in-game items getting outta whack.

Follow me so far? Isabelle would like to start from scratch because it'd be like starting over with EVERYTHING. Would everything be balanced automatically? No, but it could be far more balanced than it is, since every step would be considerate of an existing factor. The MUD can be evaluated as a whole rather than little bits at a time, which is where one begins to lose sight of it all.

Could you balance it bit by bit? Yeah. Sure. But eventually you're going to have to change something someone doesn't agree with anyways. It's pointless to argue otherwise. And if you change things bit by bit, you'll find it's much harder to accomplish, much more time consuming in the long run.

Since I've hijacked this thread to kingdom-come, I apologize.

People will disgaree with changes whether they are done all at once or a bit at a time. The purpose of this thread is not to find out the easiest and least harmful way to change the game, it's to get it balanced.

I couldn't care less if players whine about racial changes or not, I really don't care. I just want to see them done correctly one way or another, and I don't think you need to start over to balance the MUD.

Sure, starting over could lead to a lot of fun things, but is it really nesceserry for the game to be a balanced place? I really don't think so.

Anyway, so what do people think of my ideas on racial changes?

Dual-Avatar

Nov 06, 2004 · 05:22 #72

Weemster, you noob, lizardmen are perfectly balanced. Isa's right, they don't just have aqua breath, they have TAILS, and what do tails do? They help you balance! You should learn to stop doubting Isabelle's infinite wisdom and stop complaining about the perfectly balanced races. You noob.

On an unrelated note, the world is flat and the moon is made of cheese.

Retired Caretaker

Nov 06, 2004 · 18:39 #73

just clarification - my note was not meant to say we would 'start from scratch' meaning player/equipment wipe, that was totally not my intention.

what i did mean was starting the classes and races from scratch, in so much as we would first say ok, heres all the races *striiiiip* ok, now they are all the same, then saying, heres all the classes *striiiip* ok, gone, now here's a skill system, and pixies will get the ability to specialize in magic without spending skill points (as a base) and our friends the trolls will get the ability to specialize in swords without spending skillpoints (as a base)

but anywho, thats what i meant, celeborn can make a rebirthing type idea like he did last time (if he wanted to go that route)

oh, and just a side note - i wouldn't mind seeing all the races removed, and replaced with say 4 custom races unique to dark legacy, since races wouldnt really be a major factor in creating a character, you wouldnt need 8+ races, you only need a couple, that can be tailored to your desires.

Dual-Avatar

Nov 06, 2004 · 18:46 #74

actually, that's a good idea.

i'd like to see at least one unique ability for each race, though( i want to play a regenerating troll that DOESN'T suck, unlike trolls we have now)

Dual-Avatar

Nov 07, 2004 · 01:43 #75

hey! are you saying that this ol troll sucks?!!! (don't answer)

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Nov 07, 2004 · 02:10 #76

trolls as a RACE suck, lingo. I'm quite sure you could kick my ass : P

Wouldn't you like to have racial bonuses that outweigh your racial penalties?

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Nov 07, 2004 · 12:22 #77

i want whatever that is right suitable for a troll.

I like people to be able to feel the character that they are playing. having advantages that outweight disadvantages sounds good to me, but it's bad for the Mud so i wouldnt want it.

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Nov 07, 2004 · 14:34 #78

most races have advantages that outweigh the disadvantages, so it wouldn't adversely affect the mud to buff trolls up to the point where being one wasn't a liability.

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Nov 09, 2004 · 07:57 #79

While I do admit that dwarves are the Master Race, and should likely be down-sized so Pixies and Gnomes can stand a chance......

Dual-Avatar

Nov 09, 2004 · 17:32 #80

vogar, there are only two areas in which dwarves outclass pixies and gnomes: mining and coolness.

Dual-Avatar

Nov 10, 2004 · 20:53 #81

Alright, I thought it was about time I posted on this topic. Managed to resist a long while, but that other thread just got me to worked up.

Let me begin by saying that I believe Races should not nessacarily be balanced with EACH OTHER, but within themselves. If you compared any ONE races to the 'old human norm' you could say: "Yes race X has such and such a bonus, and such and such a negative. I like humans better, don't need to worry about strengths and weakness" So it is my belief that for every bonus given to a race, an equally strong disadvantage should be given.

However, lets be realistic. A 100% revamping of races likely won't happen. Tweaking on the best and the worst races likely will happen. So these are the changes I would recommend for another try at balancing out the races.

Lets start with Dwarf. Now I know everyone will say "Yeah, cuz you play a dwarf." However, I plan to go aphabetically through the races.

Dwarves as they are have decent utilitarian skills for crafting. This has drawn a heck of a lot of dwarves to the game. However, their only purpose is to craft items. For the most part these item crafters/miners rarely level past 30, fewer reach Avatar, only a handful are Tri-Avatar, and less then that epic. Why? They don't have any combat skills for either magic or melee. For survival in epic, thats a disadvantage.

What needs to be done to dwarves? We don't need to encourage people to become dwarves, we need to encourage them to level their current dwarves. We do this by giving them a little bit of a combat bonus.

Dwarf: Mine Prospecting, Regen while Drunk (its only cute, not useful for combat), 'Feral Rage' like effect while drunk.

I would recommend +0.1 Attack per level (max +5attack), +3 damage every other level (Max +75damage), -1 wis/int every tenth level (max -5) and finially -0.1 mobility per level (max -5 mobility) for the "Drunken Rage"

Now onward to Elf. I would leave them basically the way they are. I like how their magic is specialized into a certain area. However, I would give them one small bonus just to make them slightly more fun to Roleplay. Give them the innate ability to barter for a better price with mobs, like bards can do now. (both selling and buying, however)

Its Gerps next. Almost forgot these little guys. Had to come back and write them in. That says something about their fame, no?

Gerp: Everything they have now, plus Mine Prospecting. HECK, the whole reason they are gerps is they were the dwarves that mined in radioactive mines! Would add a little something to the game to have two mining races anyway, especially when one can eat rocks and the other drinks too much ale.

Time for the infamous Gnome race. What would I do? I would remove all that nasty magic complexity completely and do something simular to elves. Gnomes like to tinker with items and magic, hence they would be very well schooled in Enchantment. They would also know a lot about items (lore). Lastly I feel that the weaker gnomes would all have died out from natural selection during their magical experiments leaving only those with Magic Resistance.

Gnomes: Innate Lore, Magic resistance +1 per level, +20% Enchantment Complexity

Halflings, another one I almost forgot. Whats that say about the race?

Halfling: Good as is. Maybe give innate skill with slings simular to the Phasians down below.

Human's turn now. This will be a long one indeed. I will need to go by starsign of course. The main problem with most Starsigns is that either the bonuses have no use once your Tri-Av and in epic, their negatives strongly out weigh the bonus, or the other starsigns are just SO much better.

Avatar: Favor stays max'ed, easier to become crowned

Beauty: As is, plus innate ability to charm mobs

Clover: Good as is

Comet: -2 pounds weight carriable per level (max -100 pounds) +1 speed every other level (max +25), This would be a perment effect (not activated effect) and would stack with current spells, potions and bard songs. Think 'Speedy Gonzales'.

Cyclone: +90% resist air (doesn't effect resist max), weapons and spell damage BECOMES air damage (A sword might still sever, but it does airnot slash damage), Astral walk for free, -20% resist blunt

Fist: +3 damage per level (Max +150), +1 attack

Furnace: +2 complexity every 10 levels (max +10 complexity), +25% mana cost

Guardian Spirit: halved costs for flee, supplicate, and recall. Also give +10% exp gain, +2 luck, -1 MR ever 2 levels (max -25 MR)

Hospic: Leave as is, and ammend so vamps work with hospic

Landslide: +90% resist blunt (doesn't effect resist max), weapons and spell damage BECOMES blunt damage (A sword might still sever, but it does blunt not slash damage), +2 DamRed per level (max +100), -20% resist air

Moon: forced into Werewolf at night. Regen (limp + HP), DamRed, and HP gain based on the phase of the moon(Closer to full the more they get). For a negative, Werewolf form uses Blood Points, if char gets vamp'ed they instantly die (removing the vampire effect upon slay).

Reed: +3 DamRed per level (max +150), +1 Mobility per 10 levels (max +5), -1 Damage every level (max -50)

Shadow: when activated: Invis -lvl 15, Sneak lvl 30, Hide lvl 40, Passdoor lvl 50. (Max would be Invis + Sneak + Hide + Passdoor at level 50) Negative: Mute when skill is activated (all channels)

Shield: +1 MR every other level (Max +25), +1 all saving throws every 5 levels (Max +10), -10% HP

Sun: +90% resist fire (doesn't effect resist max), weapons and spell damage BECOMES fire damage (A sword might still sever, but it does fire not slash damage), Immune Vampirism, +1 regen in sun per 2 levels (max +25) -20% resist cold

Tower: Ability to tell EXACT location on map (Long and Lat), see 5 spaces farther on map, +0.1 Mobility per 2 levels (max 2.5)

Voids: Immune magic, not able to cast magic, IMMUNE VAMPIRISM (or a mob-potion to cure them), (maybe make a mob-potion so they can regenerate limbs somehow? Maybe could call it "Concoction of glue and staples"?)

Waterfall: +90% resist cold (doesn't effect resist max), weapons and spell damage BECOMES cold damage (A sword might still sever, but it does cold not slash damage), Aquabreath, -20% resist fire

Lizardmen finially get there well earned attention.

Lizardmen: Aquabreath, GREATLY improved Balance (maybe x2 or x3 since they have tails!), Ability to secrete 10 sips of decent poison every 3 hours(a good poison please), +50% poison resist, -50% cold resist (they are cold-blooded after all)

Ogres the misunderstood giants that nobody plays. They have good balance, and are the model (along with Elf) of what a race should be. They just are not as cool as elves. We need to make them cooler.

Ogre: 10% stronger at physical and body magic, +10 HP per level (Max +500), +1 damage per level (Max +50), -50% resist electricity (easily hit by lightning?)

Orcs, I always liked the idea of playing an Orc. Almost made a Tri-av once using this race. Pixies slaughtered him too baddly though

Orc: 10% weaker at magic, Feral Rage whenever they BLEED, no extra damage from berserk or aggressive combat styles

I would also make Feral rage based more off level. Feral Rage is too powerful for lowbie and too weak for Tri-av. If it was on a level-based curve it would be better for game balance. Having it happen whenever your bleeding would help quite a bit more then an HP trigger.

Phasians who needs them anyway? Oh well, might as well balance them too...

Phasians: give them 99% skill max with Blowguns, and +5 attack roll with Blowguns. Also give them a +10% to mind complexities.

Pixies, the evil little imps of the game.

Pixie: +20% magic complexities and innate fly when NOT kinshaped. When kinshaped -0.1 mobility and -0.1 attack per level (max -5). (Why? because sudden change in size would make them clumsy.) -50% air resist (because air attacks would blow them around)

Retired Caretaker

Nov 11, 2004 · 00:06 #82

just a quick look, thought i'd mention, lizardmen /do/ have greatly improved balance

Dual-Avatar

Nov 11, 2004 · 05:22 #83

Well, from some rather quick testing.... I can't seem to see any difference in a Lizardman's balance. They seem to be the same as dwarves and other races.

I tested by comparing number of lunges till the chars fell down using weapons that lagged for the same length of time. In both cases it was four lunges then a fall to the ground on the fifth.

Dual-Avatar

Nov 11, 2004 · 07:17 #84

CODE · MUD Output

Dwarf: Mine Prospecting, Regen while Drunk (its only cute, not useful for combat), 'Feral Rage' like effect while drunk.

might be better to make it so that dwarves can use alcohol as HP potions. Also, might want to give dwarves -2x or 3x balance. from my understanding, they have horrible balance.

CODE · MUD Output

I would recommend +0.1 Attack per level (max +5attack), +3 damage every other level (Max +75damage), -1 wis/int every tenth level (max -5) and finially -0.1 mobility per level (max -5 mobility) for the "Drunken Rage"

i disagree. + 5 base AR and 75 damage is a lot of bonus for a triave.

CODE · MUD Output

Gerp: Everything they have now, plus Mine Prospecting. HECK, the whole reason they are gerps is they were the dwarves that mined in radioactive mines! Would add a little something to the game to have two mining races anyway, especially when one can eat rocks and the other drinks too much ale.

sounds great.

CODE · MUD Output

Avatar: Favor stays max'ed, easier to become crowned

I agree

CODE · MUD Output

Beauty: As is, plus innate ability to charm mobs

i agree

CODE · MUD Output

Comet: -2 pounds weight carriable per level (max -100 pounds) +1 speed every other level (max +25), This would be a perment effect (not activated effect) and would stack with current spells, potions and bard songs. Think 'Speedy Gonzales'.

bad idea. I'm still shivering at the fact that some races/classes are way faster than others. Maybe it's just me.

CODE · MUD Output

Cyclone: +90% resist air (doesn't effect resist max), weapons and spell damage BECOMES air damage (A sword might still sever, but it does airnot slash damage), Astral walk for free, -20% resist blunt

i'm not sure about the -20% blunt damage

CODE · MUD Output

Fist: +3 damage per level (Max +150), +1 attack

sounds good but most people dont fight with their fists. This tarsign is useless. Perhaps it should be called something else besides the fist.

CODE · MUD Output

Landslide: +90% resist blunt (doesn't effect resist max), weapons and spell damage BECOMES blunt damage (A sword might still sever, but it does blunt not slash damage), +2 DamRed per level (max +100), -20% resist air

lower the 20% air resist to 10% and add -70% water resist.
I understand that -70% is alot, but it's very fair considering you get 90% blunt resist.

CODE · MUD Output

Moon: forced into Werewolf at night. Regen (limp + HP), DamRed, and HP gain based on the phase of the moon(Closer to full the more they get). For a negative, Werewolf form uses Blood Points, if char gets vamp'ed they instantly die (removing the vampire effect upon slay).

perhaps MAJOR HP increase in Werewolf form. also, some MINOR speed bonus and the skill track(only in werewolf form).

what's a Reed?

CODE · MUD Output

 Waterfall: +90% resist cold (doesn't effect resist max), weapons and spell damage BECOMES cold damage (A sword might still sever, but it does cold not slash damage), Aquabreath, -20% resist fire

lower -20% fire to -10% and add -70% electric resist

Lizardmen finially get there well earned attention.

CODE · MUD Output

Lizardmen: Aquabreath, GREATLY improved Balance (maybe x2 or x3 since they have tails!), Ability to secrete 10 sips of decent poison every 3 hours(a good poison please), +50% poison resist, -50% cold resist (they are cold-blooded after all)

sure they got a tail, but does a tail really result in more balance? i'm not sure on this one, i should do some research on this.
being cold-blooded does not mean that they are resistant to cold. all it means is that they cant warm up. In other words, they are screwed in HOT AND COLD wether. This is why lizards constantly move in and out of the shades because they cant warm up nor cool themselves.

CODE · MUD Output

Orc: 10% weaker at magic, Feral Rage whenever they BLEED, no extra damage from berserk or aggressive combat styles

instead of whenever they bleed, make the activation at 50% HP.

CODE · MUD Output

Pixie: +20% magic complexities and innate fly when NOT kinshaped. When kinshaped -0.1 mobility and -0.1 attack per level (max -5). (Why? because sudden change in size would make them clumsy.) -50% air resist (because air attacks would blow them around)

not sure what to do with them, but they need some kind of physical damage roll reduction because of their tiny size. i cant imagine a tiny pixie able to do major damage wielding a needle.

Vogar, you forgot trolls.

Here's my wild dream for a pixie(it's unfair that's why it's my wild dream!)
this only apply to pixies fighting in their true form.

a 1 ft pixie vs a 10ft dragon: all of the pixie's physical damages are reduced by 80%
a 1 ft pixie vs a 9ft troll: all of hte pixie's physical damages are reduced by 70%
a 1 ft pixie vs a 5ft human: " " by 40%
a 1 ft pixie vs a 3ft dwarf: " " by 20%
a 1 ft pixie vs a 1ft pixie: " " by 0%

Dual-Avatar

Nov 11, 2004 · 08:41 #85

OKAY.............

I honestly just CAN'T believe how some of my ideas were so misread... When I find the time, I really need to debate some of my points better so even Lingolas can understand my logic.

Let me make one thing very clear though.... -50% air resist means that if they recieve 100dmg from an air spell, it does 150dmg. Negative resistances are a BAD thing. I can't believe you misread that Lingolas....

Trolls? Whats a Troll?

Dual-Avatar

Nov 11, 2004 · 19:24 #86

trolls are a cool race that no one plays 'cause someone made them suck

Newbie

Dec 31, 2004 · 05:07 #87

y not try something closer to this games base, dnd, everything on there seems pretty balanced, change it to fit dl, but dnd would be a good base, just a thought.

Newbie

Mar 09, 2005 · 06:40 #88

let me start by saying that i am in no way a pro at this game or anything and i will say straight up that i hardly know anything about this game even tho ive been on it for almost 3 years now

having said that i think that alot of the things i have read on here have made me have several opinions on several people
mostly what that is saying is that the people who have posted on here have all just been trying to smash on each other instead of trying to help the game become balanced. now i agree with wut weem said in that the complexity is the main problem with why gnomes and pixies seem to be so much more powerful as a whole race. 5% complexiy bonus is more than enough for any race to have because having 20% bonus to complexities just makes them far too powerful of casters compared to others who might have only normal (lets say humans for example)
now i know that humans arent really thought of as a magical class but in many games both mud and games such as warcraft humans are regarded as being capable of being some of the most gifted mages in the world so in that regard every class should be capable of being just as good at magic as any other over time
but one thing that noone is mentioning so far or i may have just missed it is that there is a big deal with balancing the use of melee
pixies as a whole race will never be as physically capable as a human or better yet a troll(mostly cuz i like trolls even if they are underpowered)
yet there are pixies out there who can manage to do more dmg than any of the fighter type classes could do without any spell buffs
and i also read a post made by a certain someone i cant recall the name that said his pixie is now 10 fet 10 inches......that wouldnt make any difference he is still going to be very fragil in the body

in conclusion i believe what we need to discuss more here is both MAGICAL and PHYSICAL balance...... not just magical

Dual-Avatar

Mar 10, 2005 · 03:24 #89

ok i would like to say somthing about the gerp race even though mine is only lvl 21 right now. the race is awsome as is for low levels and not sure about high levels yet but is anyone forgeting the absorbing propertys? i think so. you have 60% slash resist and if you keep a few extra mob weapons with you you can have a big bonus. for instance at level 1 i was eating swords and getting like +10 dam roll and +.5 mob that is a verry good bonus, true you have to keep eating weapons and armor but its kinda easy top get the little stuff we use for draining any ways.

Avatar

Mar 20, 2005 · 20:25 #90

Micheal wrote:
i have read on here have made me have several opinions on several people mostly what that is saying is that the people who have posted on here have all just been trying to smash on each other instead of trying to help the game become balanced.

Yea, Welcome to the forums.

And I agree, as I have stated before, there are a lot if issues to be addressed, but unfortunately Celeborn can tackle only one or two issues at a time and it WOULD help if players would just come together as one and help him solve the issues at hand. There are quite a few intelligent people on this game who understand the mechanics and have experience playing the game day in and day out. t All have different views based on their experiences, and it would make things a hell of a lot easier if people would put aside their personal differences and simply help Celeborn solve the issues at hand

*holds up a peace sign*

Tri-Avatar

Apr 13, 2005 · 19:17 #91

We all know a pixie dungon delver with kick all the races butts

Dual-Avatar

Apr 13, 2005 · 19:49 #92

zidane wrote:
We all know a pixie dungon delver with kick all the races butts

You do realize that even Souwan admitted that dungeon delver isn't the strongest class, right?

Tri-Avatar

Apr 16, 2005 · 02:13 #93

Quintos wrote:
zidane wrote:
We all know a pixie dungon delver with kick all the races butts
You do realize that even Souwan admitted that dungeon delver isn't the strongest class, right?

Do you realize that codes change? and souwan his different from me, eq wise and plus the new craft is coming?

Dual-Avatar

Apr 17, 2005 · 19:02 #94

zidane wrote:
Quintos wrote:
Show earlier quoted context
zidane wrote:
We all know a pixie dungon delver with kick all the races butts
You do realize that even Souwan admitted that dungeon delver isn't the strongest class, right?
Do you realize that codes change? and souwan his different from me, eq wise and plus the new craft is coming?

I'm quite aware that Souwan was far stronger than you in near every aspect. I also know that many of the reasons Souwan had for saying dungeon delver is not the strongest class still apply. After code changes, some of these reasons have been amplified tenfold.

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