Paladins
Started by Kariyana on Oct 12, 2004 · 52 posts in thread
Kariyana (#1)
Post all possible changes you would like to see to this class. Also, list current pros, cons and strongest skills/spells. Enjoy
Samius (#2)
I think the Paladins should get spin because they are just like warriors cept they can do magic
Jhereko (#3)
This is how i see it....i have made many paladins and they are good, not too strong and not too magically inclined.
Most aspects seem to be balanced with them, they have heal but again not to the proportion of the cleric. And the adepting of given weapons in my opinion is set at a good point 80%swords etc. This makes sure that the paladin isn't as strong as the warrior, and well giving spin to a pally would just render warriors pointless except for bash and some additional damage.
Most aspects seem to be balanced with them, they have heal but again not to the proportion of the cleric. And the adepting of given weapons in my opinion is set at a good point 80%swords etc. This makes sure that the paladin isn't as strong as the warrior, and well giving spin to a pally would just render warriors pointless except for bash and some additional damage.
lingolas (#4)
no spin to paladins!!!
they are already so much better compared to other classses
+ vigilance = AR bonus
+ healing = full heal every 3 hrs
+ 80% Sword = decent compared to all other classes
+ undead = a huge bonus that only clerics and paladins have
+ holy avenger = + speed and damage
+ magic/melee = nice to be able to fight and cast
- ?
therefore no spin for them!!!
Rangers stole a warrior's tracking skill, lets not let paladins steal a warrior's spinning skill.
they are already so much better compared to other classses
+ vigilance = AR bonus
+ healing = full heal every 3 hrs
+ 80% Sword = decent compared to all other classes
+ undead = a huge bonus that only clerics and paladins have
+ holy avenger = + speed and damage
+ magic/melee = nice to be able to fight and cast
- ?
therefore no spin for them!!!
Rangers stole a warrior's tracking skill, lets not let paladins steal a warrior's spinning skill.
Nuitari (#5)
fix inner peace, it has been broken since near the end of the overcharging days.
oh and lingo:
-lay on hands is not a full heal, it actually sucks
-turn undead sucks(and I think the paladin version is even worse than the cleric version), only works on undead lower level than you....you do the math for epics
Paladin is, in my view, a supporting class for a warrior. They shouldn't get spin, leave it to the REAL warriors.
oh and lingo:
-lay on hands is not a full heal, it actually sucks
-turn undead sucks(and I think the paladin version is even worse than the cleric version), only works on undead lower level than you....you do the math for epics
Paladin is, in my view, a supporting class for a warrior. They shouldn't get spin, leave it to the REAL warriors.
aiutau (#6)
There should be something done about their magic ability:
They have dual-wield, which means that a crowned Paladin/Mage/Psioncist will have better complexities than a crowned Cleric/Mage/Psioncist thru the use of two 'of the Adepts.' It's lame that seemingly the best set of classes for Magic [the three magic classes] aren't the best set of classes.
What's more is they get the air rune, which combined with the breath prism gives you 'bash breath'. This gives the Paladin arguably the best breath in the game.
Also, since it is a Paladin it has decent fighting skills:
Hybrid (Mainly Melee) 3x80% 2x70% 60% Ranger, Paladin
Hybrid (Mainly Magic) 2x60% 2x50% 25% Psionicist, Bard, Cleric
As you can see, this is a very large advantage over Clerics. All, in all, the Paladin [mainly a melee class] makes the best first class for a magic user while still allowing for decent fighting if the magic user should need to go melee for whatever reason.
They have dual-wield, which means that a crowned Paladin/Mage/Psioncist will have better complexities than a crowned Cleric/Mage/Psioncist thru the use of two 'of the Adepts.' It's lame that seemingly the best set of classes for Magic [the three magic classes] aren't the best set of classes.
What's more is they get the air rune, which combined with the breath prism gives you 'bash breath'. This gives the Paladin arguably the best breath in the game.
Also, since it is a Paladin it has decent fighting skills:
Hybrid (Mainly Melee) 3x80% 2x70% 60% Ranger, Paladin
Hybrid (Mainly Magic) 2x60% 2x50% 25% Psionicist, Bard, Cleric
As you can see, this is a very large advantage over Clerics. All, in all, the Paladin [mainly a melee class] makes the best first class for a magic user while still allowing for decent fighting if the magic user should need to go melee for whatever reason.
weems (#7)
Aiutau, the problems you mentioned are not problems with paladins, rather the entire magic system.
The magic system needs to be fixed, not paladins, and thus the fact that paladins making very good offensive magic users when combined with mage etc is a moot point, because if/when magic is fixed, you would have to tweak paladins back to the way they were.
The magic system needs to be fixed, not paladins, and thus the fact that paladins making very good offensive magic users when combined with mage etc is a moot point, because if/when magic is fixed, you would have to tweak paladins back to the way they were.
lingolas (#8)
i have to agree with weem.
After viewing the magic system for more than a year now i conclude that the magic system is the source of all if not most imbalances. A pixie advantages are amplified because of the persisting magic system.
what would be a better magic system? anyone got any idea for a new magic system?
After viewing the magic system for more than a year now i conclude that the magic system is the source of all if not most imbalances. A pixie advantages are amplified because of the persisting magic system.
what would be a better magic system? anyone got any idea for a new magic system?
Nuitari (#9)
Dual wielding adepts is only useful for making sigils and enchanting weapons, it is moronic to dual wield them in combat, except in certain special situations.
Isabelle (#10)
the magic system does not need to be replaced, the source of the problems lies with the 'no mana cost spells' and the ability to combine that with instantaneous runes.
Jhereko (#11)
get rid of the no mana cost, or get rid of the the ability to combine an instantanious rune with a spell that costs nothing impossible.... magic system works , just cant be lazy when trying to make it work
weems (#12)
Who said it needed replacing? Nobody, as far as I can tell, but there are certain issues with it that need addressing, and go far deeper than mere mana cost. And its not that magic is too good, but rather the exact opposite. There seems to be an astounding amount of older players who think that magic is simply awesome, and thats that. Well, news flash:Isabelle wrote:the magic system does not need to be replaced, the source of the problems lies with the 'no mana cost spells' and the ability to combine that with instantaneous runes.
MAGIC SUCKS ON ITS OWN
Yes, thats right. If you use just magic (IE an oracle mage/psion/cleric), you will eternally SUCK.
Issue being: Your potential for magic is forever determined at level 1/1/1, AND YOU NEVER GET ANY BETTER AT IT AFTER YOU CROWN.
If you have surps, staves of the adept, and a crowned pixie...Your comlpexities will never imrprove.
As opposed to a regular weapon user, who can enchant damage roll and attack roll onto their equipment, and get better and better forever.
Actually, the entire REASON why magic abilities are so sought after is because they are EASY to get, they require no effort, its a burst of power just added onto whatever you already had, so magic is either really really good (when its combined with regular weapons), or really really crappy (when you try to use it on its own).
So if magic was something you had to work for, rather than just something you INHERITED from your race and class, it would completly kill all these rune complaints, and maybe make a pure caster actually a viable choice. Also, it would help make 'builds' a less popular thing to do, since magical power would be based on the effort you put in. And another thing, it would make magic less useful for weapon users, which I also agree with.
Kiasyn (#13)
When will people learn that it is pretty much impossible to have a Cie AND a Bee in 1 spell? IMPOSSIBLE... so there are no manaless instant spells anymore, celeborn took care of that when he reduced speedIsabelle wrote:the magic system does not need to be replaced, the source of the problems lies with the 'no mana cost spells' and the ability to combine that with instantaneous runes.
Isabelle (#14)
ok weems, your message said nobody was saying the magic system needed to be replaced, try reading the message i replied to -
from lingolas
and i quote
-snip
what would be a better magic system? anyone got any idea for a new magic system?
-snip
thats what i replied to, and i stick with my answer.
from lingolas
and i quote
-snip
what would be a better magic system? anyone got any idea for a new magic system?
-snip
thats what i replied to, and i stick with my answer.
Nuitari (#15)
Weems = Correct
weems (#16)
Thank you Nuitari, and I stick to my answer as well, Isabelle. The problems with the magic system are much deeper than a few runes.Nuitari wrote:Weems = Correct
Kiasyn (#17)
How did this turn from a discussion thread about paladins to a thread about the magic system?
weems (#18)
Scroll up, read the thread.kiasyn wrote:How did this turn from a discussion thread about paladins to a thread about the magic system?
In particular, look for aiutau's posts.
Isabelle (#19)
-summary for kiasyn-
i believe it was when weems said the problem lies with the magic system, and then lingolas said it needed to be replaced, and then when i said no it didnt, then it was an arguement about whether i am correct or not.
P.S. the magic system doesnt need to be replaced
tweaked, sure - i have no arguement with that
i believe it was when weems said the problem lies with the magic system, and then lingolas said it needed to be replaced, and then when i said no it didnt, then it was an arguement about whether i am correct or not.
P.S. the magic system doesnt need to be replaced
tweaked, sure - i have no arguement with that
weems (#20)
Isabelle wrote:-summary for kiasyn-
i believe it was when weems said the problem lies with the magic system, and then lingolas said it needed to be replaced, and then when i said no it didnt, then it was an arguement about whether i am correct or not.
P.S. the magic system doesnt need to be replaced
tweaked, sure - i have no arguement with that
If you take a wooden boat, and slowly, over the course of decades, remove planks and put in newer ones as repairs...And eventually every single piece and part of the boat has been changed..Question: Has the boat been replaced, or tweaked? And what difference does it make, really? Changes are changes. Arguing about semantics is silly, and gets ideas nowhere. Instead of focussing on the wording used, you could look at what people actually MEAN.
Summary of thread for people too lazy to read:
1. Spin is proposed as an ability for Paladins.
2. Spin for Paladins is rebuked because Paladins are deemed to be plenty strong enough without it.
3. People bring up the fact that magically, Paladins kick lots of arse.
4. Arguements ensue on whether or not Paladins need to change, or the magic system, semantics, and random spam gets tossed in for good measure.
Kiasyn (#21)
Aah
Nuitari (#22)
How do Paladins kick ass magically?
They get divine as a secondary skill, body and defensive as teritery skills, and the rest of their complexes are utter crap.
Divine = Bless, Vigilance(Inner Peace still doesn't work properly and warmonger is only useful in splatting contests or for gnomes who don't yet have enough glory to get medium size)
They get 80% in swords/axes(useless if you have fighter, rogue, or ranger) 90% in all armor types(useless if you have fighter), mounted charge(useless), lay on hands(sorry to say it, but it's useless), holy avenger(a moo rune,a few thousand enchant space, and crits on undead, useless if you have mage), vigilance(maybe 10 more speed than other casters get from vigilance) and bless(a few thousand enchant sapce more than other classes get from bless). If Inner Peace worked, it would make Paladin a good supporting class for warriors, but unfortunately it doesn't.
A single-class Paladin would be very good compared to other single class characters...but this isn't a single-class game. Paladin isn't effective in conjunction with warrior(thanks to inner peace not working and their armor/weapon skills not stacking), and it can't effecitvely replace warrior, unlike some people think(19% less in sword/axes, 9% less in all armor types, no equilibrium, no headbutt, no bash, no spin). So, it is a class that isn't useful in conjuction with other fighting classes(warrior, rogue) and can't compare to them in terms of fighting power, in a game where physical combat is the only real way to fight(thanks to AMS, Gnomes, and complexities being effectively capped at relatively low levels). Of course, if Inner Peace is ever fixed, Paladins will be very powerful, perhaps becoming even as useful as warrior, rogue, or cleric.
If you're wondering why my current character has Paladin as a class(and in conjunction with warrior, no less), it is because this character was designed in an earlier patch where balance was all-important, and I didn't realize that they had messed up Inner Peace since I last used it heavily.
They get divine as a secondary skill, body and defensive as teritery skills, and the rest of their complexes are utter crap.
Divine = Bless, Vigilance(Inner Peace still doesn't work properly and warmonger is only useful in splatting contests or for gnomes who don't yet have enough glory to get medium size)
They get 80% in swords/axes(useless if you have fighter, rogue, or ranger) 90% in all armor types(useless if you have fighter), mounted charge(useless), lay on hands(sorry to say it, but it's useless), holy avenger(a moo rune,a few thousand enchant space, and crits on undead, useless if you have mage), vigilance(maybe 10 more speed than other casters get from vigilance) and bless(a few thousand enchant sapce more than other classes get from bless). If Inner Peace worked, it would make Paladin a good supporting class for warriors, but unfortunately it doesn't.
A single-class Paladin would be very good compared to other single class characters...but this isn't a single-class game. Paladin isn't effective in conjunction with warrior(thanks to inner peace not working and their armor/weapon skills not stacking), and it can't effecitvely replace warrior, unlike some people think(19% less in sword/axes, 9% less in all armor types, no equilibrium, no headbutt, no bash, no spin). So, it is a class that isn't useful in conjuction with other fighting classes(warrior, rogue) and can't compare to them in terms of fighting power, in a game where physical combat is the only real way to fight(thanks to AMS, Gnomes, and complexities being effectively capped at relatively low levels). Of course, if Inner Peace is ever fixed, Paladins will be very powerful, perhaps becoming even as useful as warrior, rogue, or cleric.
If you're wondering why my current character has Paladin as a class(and in conjunction with warrior, no less), it is because this character was designed in an earlier patch where balance was all-important, and I didn't realize that they had messed up Inner Peace since I last used it heavily.
aiutau (#23)
Look at my last post. Paladins + Dual Wielded 'of the Adepts' + Magic classes = teh pwn mage. Granted, Mages suck; but why should Paladins, a FIGHTER class, make the best mages.Nuitari wrote:How do Paladins kick ass magically?
You said that 'of the Adepts' are useless outside of enchanting and sigils, and I think this is a wholly incorrect statement. It's not good to use offensive magic because it sucks, granted.
But couldn't you sheathe your standard weapons and draw the staves when Haste, for example, runs out? Then you could have extra complexity on your Haste spell. This allows you to have it last longer or be more powerful. That's a pretty useful thing. People use triggers to stay spelled up already; just put an extra three commands into your trigger... it wont hurt.
Nuitari (#24)
that's the power of triggers, not paladins. by your logic, bards, warriors, rangers, rogues and any other class that gets dual-wield or has a way of temporarily boosting complexities is overpowered. dual wield isn't unique to paladins, and it doesn't make sense that characters with dual wield get higher complexities, but that isn't a problem with paladins. A cleric/fighter can cast the same haste as a cleric/paladin, a mage/fighter gets the same haste as a mage/paladin
Isabelle (#25)
in your opinion, is the only problem with paladins their ability to wield staves of the adept?
because you know, i can fix that (i could make it psionicist, cleric, mage, druid only
because you know, i can fix that (i could make it psionicist, cleric, mage, druid only
Nuitari (#26)
and what would that do? most paladins who dual wield adepts are conjurers anyways(i have two pixie paladins, and only the one who is a conjurer uses adepts).
also, restricting magic- or fighting- boosting items to "pure" casters or fighters defeats the purpose of hybrid characters
also, restricting magic- or fighting- boosting items to "pure" casters or fighters defeats the purpose of hybrid characters
weems (#27)
NO!! Why should a paladin get a penalty just for being a paladin? And besides, like Nuitari said, pretty much any Paladin that uses staves of the adept already has at least mage as a class as well, making the Staves caster class only would just pointlessly penalize first class paladins.Isabelle wrote:in your opinion, is the only problem with paladins their ability to wield staves of the adept?
because you know, i can fix that (i could make it psionicist, cleric, mage, druid only
Isabelle (#28)
so whats your fix then?
i was just trying to understand what you guys want, i'm having a hard time figuring it out.
i was just trying to understand what you guys want, i'm having a hard time figuring it out.
Nuitari (#29)
the only one who thinks anything needs fixing is that aia-something person. he's unhappy about staves of the adept giving characters with dual wield higher complexities than oracles, which he apparently conisders to be the game's "pure" caster epic class. in my opinion, and i believe weemster's as well, this isn't something that really needs to be fixed, and it especially doesn't need to be fixed by taking away the ability of hybrid classes to use staves.
if aia-whatever won't accept this, there's always the idea of making epic class-specific bonuses. an oracle's bonus could be a small bonus to all complexities, which would give them the highest complexities in the game. if this is something that can feasibly be done, and you are willing to implement it, i have ideas for some of the epic classes' bonuses, and we can all think up ones for the rest of the classes instead of arguing.
if aia-whatever won't accept this, there's always the idea of making epic class-specific bonuses. an oracle's bonus could be a small bonus to all complexities, which would give them the highest complexities in the game. if this is something that can feasibly be done, and you are willing to implement it, i have ideas for some of the epic classes' bonuses, and we can all think up ones for the rest of the classes instead of arguing.
lingolas (#30)
what's your idea for an acrobat?
Nuitari (#31)
perhaps a speed bonus and a dex or ac bonus?
Nuitari (#32)
Some bonuses I thought of, probably not all balanced and need tweaking, but here they are:
Acrobat: speed bonus, bonus to dex and max dex
Arcane Templar: reduced spell failure penalty for wielding weapons
Battlemage: significant bonus to mr-piercing roll
Conjurer: small bonus to spell casting speeds
Dungeon Delver: bonus to chestfind and goldfind
Hostpitaler: bonus to healing spells
Juggernaut: damage reduction bonus, bonus to strength and max strength
Oracle: small bonus to all complexities
Shaman: small reduction to spell costs
Spiritualist: mr bonus, bonus to wisdom and max wisdom
Acrobat: speed bonus, bonus to dex and max dex
Arcane Templar: reduced spell failure penalty for wielding weapons
Battlemage: significant bonus to mr-piercing roll
Conjurer: small bonus to spell casting speeds
Dungeon Delver: bonus to chestfind and goldfind
Hostpitaler: bonus to healing spells
Juggernaut: damage reduction bonus, bonus to strength and max strength
Oracle: small bonus to all complexities
Shaman: small reduction to spell costs
Spiritualist: mr bonus, bonus to wisdom and max wisdom
Vogar Eol (#33)
Well, I personally think this should start a new topic. However I will test it in this one first. It is a Paladin skill, after all.
We all know that Turning is a fairly weak skill. There is nothing we can do to enhance it either. Oh yeah, we can level! But will it ever be useful against mobs that are actually challenging to us (ie... higher level then us), nope. Not as long as things stay the same.
I recommend changing the skill into a Spell Idol for both Clerics and Paladins to use. It would of course be the Divine spell school. This way we could add Fecs to make it more powerful, Rgy to allow use to use it more often, ect.....
I would however like the spell to somehow still incorperate the customizable Turning Phrase. I just love screaming "Klato Veratta Nickto!" and having undead squirm in pain.
We all know that Turning is a fairly weak skill. There is nothing we can do to enhance it either. Oh yeah, we can level! But will it ever be useful against mobs that are actually challenging to us (ie... higher level then us), nope. Not as long as things stay the same.
I recommend changing the skill into a Spell Idol for both Clerics and Paladins to use. It would of course be the Divine spell school. This way we could add Fecs to make it more powerful, Rgy to allow use to use it more often, ect.....
I would however like the spell to somehow still incorperate the customizable Turning Phrase. I just love screaming "Klato Veratta Nickto!" and having undead squirm in pain.
Nuitari (#34)
I like it!
My turncry is "DIE EVIL TURKEY!!!"
My turncry is "DIE EVIL TURKEY!!!"
aiutau (#35)
First things first. My name is aiutau. A-I-U-T-A-U... it's not hard.Nuitari wrote:the only one who thinks anything needs fixing is that aia-something person. he's unhappy about staves of the adept giving characters with dual wield higher complexities than oracles, which he apparently conisders to be the game's "pure" caster epic class. in my opinion, and i believe weemster's as well, this isn't something that really needs to be fixed, and it especially doesn't need to be fixed by taking away the ability of hybrid classes to use staves.
if aia-whatever won't accept this, there's always the idea of making epic class-specific bonuses. an oracle's bonus could be a small bonus to all complexities, which would give them the highest complexities in the game. if this is something that can feasibly be done, and you are willing to implement it, i have ideas for some of the epic classes' bonuses, and we can all think up ones for the rest of the classes instead of arguing.
And I think that Oracles are the 'pure' magic epic class? Well, that's because they DO NOTHING BUT MAGIC. Their classes are all geared to Magic. There is no reason for a Conjurer, with a main class that is geared towards fighting, to have be able to cast better than a character with classes geared towards magic. And even if the Conjurer isn't first class Paladin, Paladin is still the main class; what's the point of Paladin in this compacity? Dual-wield. 'nuff said.
And why make turn better for Paladins? It's a pretty cool, yes. Paladins aren't as good as Clerics at it, yes. That's because they have to concentrate on fighting as well as ritualized killing by envoking your holy symbol. Why don't you give Paladins all the skills of all the classes? That'd be pretty cool, too. Also, it's not completely crappy; there is a certain MOB in an high-leveled area in a no-magic room with a pretty decent piece of EQ on it that binds.
And I think Staves of the Adept would be good to be anti-Paladin; it'd make things more inline. While that's not all that should be done to balance the class, I don't know much about the class outside of that context. I just know it's unfair for Conjurers, with their better fighting ability, to be better at magic than Oracles.
Conjurers basically make Oracles obsoluete, with Oracles already being weak by themselves. They don't need the help.
lingolas (#36)
how well can a conjuror conjur?
Nuitari (#37)
Aia-whatever, please get out of our forums. That is all, thank you.
Vogar Eol (#38)
Aiu-person, last I checked, Clerics got a higher divine skill then Paladins. Wouldn't that mean they would get a better Turn spell then Paladins? Also, have I been here slamming you yet? Well I sure can start, I can slam flames with the best. Why? I like to use cold hard logic and fact.
Fact: Dual-wielding weapons in combat, and expecting to cast spells gives near suicidal lag.
Myth: The couple complexity that you gain from dual-wielding staves will keep you alive despite the lag.
Fact: Its a runeword.
Myth: Everyone knows it, can get it, has two, and uses them.
Fact: Turn is useless for EVERYONE not just Paladins
Myth: Turn is cool
Fact: Almost none of a Paladin's special spells work correctly.
Myth: Paladins get all kinds of uber-cool stuff
Fact: If the Oracles and Conjurers both have empty hands to reduce lag on spells, Oracles win the magical combat. If a Conjurer doesn't have both hands empty, he will be cut down by lag.
Myth: Oracles are completely helpless to Conjurers.
Fact: If a Warrior/Rogue/Paladin couldn't use Staff of Addept he would be unfairly punished for no good reason.
Myth: Making them Anti-Paladin is a great idea.
Fact: That I should need to point any of the above points out annoys me.
Myth: Vogar likes to debate with people.
Fact: Dual-wielding weapons in combat, and expecting to cast spells gives near suicidal lag.
Myth: The couple complexity that you gain from dual-wielding staves will keep you alive despite the lag.
Fact: Its a runeword.
Myth: Everyone knows it, can get it, has two, and uses them.
Fact: Turn is useless for EVERYONE not just Paladins
Myth: Turn is cool
Fact: Almost none of a Paladin's special spells work correctly.
Myth: Paladins get all kinds of uber-cool stuff
Fact: If the Oracles and Conjurers both have empty hands to reduce lag on spells, Oracles win the magical combat. If a Conjurer doesn't have both hands empty, he will be cut down by lag.
Myth: Oracles are completely helpless to Conjurers.
Fact: If a Warrior/Rogue/Paladin couldn't use Staff of Addept he would be unfairly punished for no good reason.
Myth: Making them Anti-Paladin is a great idea.
Fact: That I should need to point any of the above points out annoys me.
Myth: Vogar likes to debate with people.
Nuitari (#39)
In general, Vogar's right, but to point out a few things:
1. Its Aia-whatever, not Aiu-person. Learn to spell
2. Paladins actually get higher divine than clerics, about 50% more, but this is their only "secondary" complexity(most real "caster" classes have two), they have no "primary" complexity, and the rest of their complexities suck completely. A paladin gets as much divine as a mage gets basic or enchantment, and it's downhill from there.
3. Dual wielding adepts not only raises lag, but spell failure rate as well. An Oracle with empty hands will cast several times as quickly, and suffer much lower spell failure rates.
4. A barehanded conjurer will get the crap beaten out of him by a barehanded oracle. The conjurer gets inferior speed, inferior MR, inferior healing, and the only things he gets better are....bless and warmonger, which aren't going to help a caster much. A conjurer dual-wielding adepts will get raped even harder. Conjurers are for enchanting, sigil making, and astraling to acd, your non-combat casters. Oracles are the casters who actually make decent main characters and can fight and epic effectively(though with AMS, capped complexities, and absurd MR on epic mobs, the game is rigged against pure casters now)
5. You seem to think that oracles are somehow "pure" casters, and conjurers should be inferior in every way to oracles simply because you think one of their classes is too warrior-like. For starters, psionicist isn't a pure caster class; they have 60% in swords(as opposed to 10% that REAL casters get) and a few other combat-related perks. If you want to be a "pure" caster, be a mage/cleric/druid. The fact that you have psionicist shows that you are willing to sacrifice a "pure" caster class to get higher complexities; which is exactly what conjurer does, they just do it to a higher degree than you. Furthermore, it is mages who create sigils, enchant weapons, cast offensive spells, etc, NOT some epic class combination. You get three classes in this game, if you take mage, you are just as much an "enchanter" and offensive spell caster as anyone else who takes mage. Taking cleric instead of paladin doesn't make you any more of a mage or offensive caster, it just makes you a cleric and defensive caster as well.
6. Just because someone else can get higher complexities than you doesn't mean the imms need to change the game so that it can perfectly mirror what you think it should be. My first character after the "new" races and racial bonuses were introduced was an elven oracle. I had all the problems modern oracles have, PLUS my max complexes were 74, instead of the vaunted 85 pixies get. Did I bitch and whine like you do? No. I made a new character who better suited what I wanted to play, and who was, in my opinion, more powerful. Nothing is stopping you from making a conjurer.
7. Since you are viewing everything on the "epic class" level, you should support my idea of epic class based bonuses. It would give oracles the best complexities without making them dual wield and take insane penalties to speed and failure rate. It would pretty much give you exactly what you want, without hurting anyone else.
8. Taking out staves of the adept would hurt all casters, as those staves are the only way to reach beyond your otherwise maximum complexities, and they do a good bit to help pierce MR as well. Everyone would also be stuck with inferior sigils and enchant weapon spells, and the Imms would probably have to track down and "confiscate" all remaining 24- and 25-strength sigils.
1. Its Aia-whatever, not Aiu-person. Learn to spell
2. Paladins actually get higher divine than clerics, about 50% more, but this is their only "secondary" complexity(most real "caster" classes have two), they have no "primary" complexity, and the rest of their complexities suck completely. A paladin gets as much divine as a mage gets basic or enchantment, and it's downhill from there.
3. Dual wielding adepts not only raises lag, but spell failure rate as well. An Oracle with empty hands will cast several times as quickly, and suffer much lower spell failure rates.
4. A barehanded conjurer will get the crap beaten out of him by a barehanded oracle. The conjurer gets inferior speed, inferior MR, inferior healing, and the only things he gets better are....bless and warmonger, which aren't going to help a caster much. A conjurer dual-wielding adepts will get raped even harder. Conjurers are for enchanting, sigil making, and astraling to acd, your non-combat casters. Oracles are the casters who actually make decent main characters and can fight and epic effectively(though with AMS, capped complexities, and absurd MR on epic mobs, the game is rigged against pure casters now)
5. You seem to think that oracles are somehow "pure" casters, and conjurers should be inferior in every way to oracles simply because you think one of their classes is too warrior-like. For starters, psionicist isn't a pure caster class; they have 60% in swords(as opposed to 10% that REAL casters get) and a few other combat-related perks. If you want to be a "pure" caster, be a mage/cleric/druid. The fact that you have psionicist shows that you are willing to sacrifice a "pure" caster class to get higher complexities; which is exactly what conjurer does, they just do it to a higher degree than you. Furthermore, it is mages who create sigils, enchant weapons, cast offensive spells, etc, NOT some epic class combination. You get three classes in this game, if you take mage, you are just as much an "enchanter" and offensive spell caster as anyone else who takes mage. Taking cleric instead of paladin doesn't make you any more of a mage or offensive caster, it just makes you a cleric and defensive caster as well.
6. Just because someone else can get higher complexities than you doesn't mean the imms need to change the game so that it can perfectly mirror what you think it should be. My first character after the "new" races and racial bonuses were introduced was an elven oracle. I had all the problems modern oracles have, PLUS my max complexes were 74, instead of the vaunted 85 pixies get. Did I bitch and whine like you do? No. I made a new character who better suited what I wanted to play, and who was, in my opinion, more powerful. Nothing is stopping you from making a conjurer.
7. Since you are viewing everything on the "epic class" level, you should support my idea of epic class based bonuses. It would give oracles the best complexities without making them dual wield and take insane penalties to speed and failure rate. It would pretty much give you exactly what you want, without hurting anyone else.
8. Taking out staves of the adept would hurt all casters, as those staves are the only way to reach beyond your otherwise maximum complexities, and they do a good bit to help pierce MR as well. Everyone would also be stuck with inferior sigils and enchant weapon spells, and the Imms would probably have to track down and "confiscate" all remaining 24- and 25-strength sigils.
Cardowin (#40)
Ello my name is Cardowin and I was wonder what are the most usefull paladin spells to conjure, like which ones get the most use? So just a nice list of the ones I should conjure and leave the rest. Thanks in advance to people who post 
Vogar Eol (#41)
Holy Avenger, Bless, Heal, Resurrect, Regenerate, Create food, Create Spring, and Farsight. Those are the most useful of the Paladin spells in my oppion. Some of the spells, like inner peace, are bugged and do nothing.
Cardowin (#42)
Thanks Vogar!!!
And what Runes would you add to those Prisms/Idols????
And what Runes would you add to those Prisms/Idols????
Vogar Eol (#43)
Most useful rune you will get as a Paladin is the "Dis" rune. It turns the damage of the spell into "Air Damage". This is about the rarest type of damage and the rarest resistance. I believe there are only three items in the game that hold air resistance, and all are hard to get. Chances of player or mob resisting air damage are quite slim (if you get through the MR). One other benefit is that Air Breath stuns the targets as if bashed.
Other then that, just make your spells racial to the target they are being cast on. A simple racial rune multiplies the power of any fec added to the spell. In short, the spell is a lot better.
Other then that, just make your spells racial to the target they are being cast on. A simple racial rune multiplies the power of any fec added to the spell. In short, the spell is a lot better.
Nuitari (#44)
ter > dis. *cough* armplates of the shifting light *cough*
Cardowin (#45)
Hi again I have read the soulbind helpfile and still am confused on racial runes which runes do i need if im an elf that what i think u mean when u say what race they will be cast on??? so again where would i find/get these racial runes?
Vogar Eol (#46)
Ice runes vs Air runes? HAH! Everyone with common sense knows Air runes are better
Soulbind is a spell that creates a rune if you kill the creature while the spell is still on them. To identify a creature's race, cast deem on them. A elf is a humanoid shaped rune 'man'.
Everyone with common sense knows Air runes are better Soulbind is a spell that creates a rune if you kill the creature while the spell is still on them. To identify a creature's race, cast deem on them. A elf is a humanoid shaped rune 'man'.
Nuitari (#47)
ice runes are better than air runes. most of the characters who are decent in the arena use armplates of the shifting light(which gives -20% cold resist), no commonly used mob eq grants cold resist(except elemental band, but few players wear those constantly), and few players bother enchanting cold resists. Everyone gets 10 air resist from eldritch sphere, and I wouldn't be surprised if most players start enchanting air resistances on their eq with all the conjurers who don't seem to know how to use any other elemental rune.
Kiasyn (#48)
Fact: Turn Rocks.Vogar Eol wrote:Fact: Turn is useless for EVERYONE not just Paladins
Myth: Turn is cool
Myth: Dwarves rock.
Vogar Eol (#49)
Do you really think this person is concerned with arena PvP? Which is more useful in epics? Air or Ter? Which is a mob more likely built to resist? Cold or Air?
Fact: Pixies are only good for one thing, and thats making jam. Well, thats if you debone them propperly.
Myth: Kiasyn is a guy.
Fact: Pixies are only good for one thing, and thats making jam. Well, thats if you debone them propperly.
Myth: Kiasyn is a guy.
Cardowin (#50)
Yeah i dont really care about arena more along the lines of PvM dont really find it worth while engaging someone in a duel, when i could be exploring alora or slaying an evil beast!!!
Nuitari (#51)
Vogar, if beating mobs is any sort of issue for you, you really need to re-evaluate everything you know, or think you know, about making characters.
Hrulgin (#52)
As far as i am concerned paladins are a very well balanced class that need little change. The only thing that I think they should have and don't is the ability to see ghosttalk. They get ressurect, so why not the ability to ghosttalk? I don't see it as unbalancing.
