First of all, I'll say that it's nice to be able to have so many commands for us to jail people, based on their actions and the end result.
However, alot of the time, we're unable to do certain things without the assistance of a Caretaker. This includes: pardoning people and releasing them from their shackles (which has to be done by a Caretaker because when the person is pardoned, they aren't released), charging someone with harassment, etc.
Perhaps JC should be able to jail people with minimal assistance of a Caretker, all with a note posted at the JC board which we all are doing anyways (well, most of us, I notice some people are jailed without a note).
Expansion of JC Powers
Started by Kariyana on Oct 03, 2004 · 42 posts in thread
Kariyana (#1)
lingolas (#2)
i agree, i think that the options that JG have is very limited. JGs will perform better if they had more choices to pick.
Sometimes we give criminals highly justificed assult simply because we can't find anything else that is suitable for the case.
to JGs only: what other options do you think we should have in addition to the ones that we already have?
Sometimes we give criminals highly justificed assult simply because we can't find anything else that is suitable for the case.
to JGs only: what other options do you think we should have in addition to the ones that we already have?
Kariyana (#3)
A few of them that I really see a need for:
botting - either from observation or from someone within our guild/group suggesting it or saying they've witnessed it. besides, we already have the option (providing that someone has a log when they go to prove it).
law breaking - violation of laws set forth already (refusal to change name, monopolizing mobs, etc).
harassment (include the different forms since there's different kinds - sexual, profanity, negavtive/unwanted attention, etc).
botting - either from observation or from someone within our guild/group suggesting it or saying they've witnessed it. besides, we already have the option (providing that someone has a log when they go to prove it).
law breaking - violation of laws set forth already (refusal to change name, monopolizing mobs, etc).
harassment (include the different forms since there's different kinds - sexual, profanity, negavtive/unwanted attention, etc).
Isabelle (#4)
you guys are not ready for it yet
proof - the little incident with that player crimsun, yeah, he got out of hand, but only after the players online continued ridiculing him in a fashion that was very aggressive.
Theres a right way and a wrong way to handle players which are doing something wrong, the method used was to instantly put the player on the defensive, causing him to fight back. It ended poorly.
A better way would have been to say, (private tells) ok crimsun, the reason why you cant use crimsun is because theres a monster with a very similar name, and it will end up getting you in trouble.
Which would then be followed by helpful suggestions on names to use.
this was not the case, instead it was an all out war, involving death, and much global insulting.
Next - I agree, pardoning /could/ possibly happen, as most/some of you are ready for that, but it will be a little while yet before i am confinced the players are ready to pardon each other.
proof - the little incident with that player crimsun, yeah, he got out of hand, but only after the players online continued ridiculing him in a fashion that was very aggressive.
Theres a right way and a wrong way to handle players which are doing something wrong, the method used was to instantly put the player on the defensive, causing him to fight back. It ended poorly.
A better way would have been to say, (private tells) ok crimsun, the reason why you cant use crimsun is because theres a monster with a very similar name, and it will end up getting you in trouble.
Which would then be followed by helpful suggestions on names to use.
this was not the case, instead it was an all out war, involving death, and much global insulting.
Next - I agree, pardoning /could/ possibly happen, as most/some of you are ready for that, but it will be a little while yet before i am confinced the players are ready to pardon each other.
weems (#5)
Isabelle, you have not adressed the other one.
Releasing a player from shackles who was pardoned by a player after they were sent to jail.
If any of those are a must, that one is.
Releasing a player from shackles who was pardoned by a player after they were sent to jail.
If any of those are a must, that one is.
Quintos (#6)
The imms have said that the reason pardoning doesn't remove from shackles is to prevent people from playing with the justice system by reporting/pardoning their friends.
weems (#7)
That doesnt adress it either.Quintos wrote:The imms have said that the reason pardoning doesn't remove from shackles is to prevent people from playing with the justice system by reporting/pardoning their friends.
Quintos (#8)
I'm just telling you they probably won't do that 
weems (#9)
And I'm telling you that that's stupid.Quintos wrote:I'm just telling you they probably won't do that
Let Isabelle speak for herself please.
Quintos (#10)
Well I have asked immortals before, and that was their response to me. I think it would be good if JG had the ability to release pardoned criminals from their shackles, but they should also be able to jail someone who tries to abuse this.
weems (#11)
I don't even see how it's possible to abuse it.Quintos wrote:Well I have asked immortals before, and that was their response to me. I think it would be good if JG had the ability to release pardoned criminals from their shackles, but they should also be able to jail someone who tries to abuse this.
Quintos (#12)
Its not really abuse, but more of just bogging down the justice system (although it is pretty slow and they should have the time...) by getting them to jail your friend, then after your friend is jailed, you pardon him and ask for him to be released. Once or twice this would be acceptable, but when you're repeatedly doing it, it's just wasting the time of the JG and should be punished appropriately.
Isabelle (#13)
pardon is pardon, it does not matter what they are being pardoned for, the mud doesnt care.
once i feel the players have matured enough to handle the responsibility, i will then discuss it with celeborn.
once i feel the players have matured enough to handle the responsibility, i will then discuss it with celeborn.
Jorelani (#14)
Which is never.Isabelle wrote:once i feel the players have matured enough to handle the responsibility, i will then discuss it with celeborn.
Isabelle (#15)
most of the justice council members are pretty much there, it's the jc members who dont really do anything that i worry about
Jorelani (#16)
And next you know, someone mentions the idea of JC being able to invade hamlets without warrants. Down with the Man!
Quintos (#17)
The JC is already destroying Zeraphin's masterful responses to Isabelle!!! Down with the Man!
Kiasyn (#18)
being able to invade structure to jail them could be abused far too easily... i have talked to celeborn about this and he suggested being able to 'summon' players out.
Quintos (#19)
Summoning them out? What fun is that?
Kiasyn (#20)
It doesn't have to be fun but it gets the job done 
Quintos (#21)
If someone wants to sit in their citadel and hide, let them. There are always non-citadel areas where they can hide without having JC get to them which are non-summon. Maybe give the JC an option to vote_silence a criminal. Then all hiding in their citadel would do is basically having them be in jail without being in jail.
Kiasyn (#22)
i'd do that... then i could just work on crafts the whole time
Quintos (#23)
Well it keeps you from commiting other crimes, and isn't that the point of jail?
Kiasyn (#24)
i thought the point of jail was to punish
Shira (#25)
My question is Isabelle, if you feel JG's aren't mature enough to take on the additional responsibilities, then why are they STILL a part of the sytem? I have lost respect for JG, (system, not players in general), because it has failed to rule out those who shouldn't be JG and I, like a few others, could seriously name one.
I agree with Lingolas, it's quite frustrating because of how limited we are. I understand the immy's reservations on the matter, and it all comes back to my main question stated above.
To answer your question Lingolas, we should be able to pardon at will, and if a JG is caught making an unsound judgement, then that person is given a warning, then removed. We should also have other options such as Distubring the Peace for public channels, Slandar (was recently pissed off for a rescent incident), harrasment (sexual..etc.), abused profanity, Provoking a Player to commit a crime, Duty unbecoming of a JG officer (would entail Caretaker approval), Stealing, Resistance to Arrest (hiding out of any sort)..etc.
I agree with Lingolas, it's quite frustrating because of how limited we are. I understand the immy's reservations on the matter, and it all comes back to my main question stated above.
To answer your question Lingolas, we should be able to pardon at will, and if a JG is caught making an unsound judgement, then that person is given a warning, then removed. We should also have other options such as Distubring the Peace for public channels, Slandar (was recently pissed off for a rescent incident), harrasment (sexual..etc.), abused profanity, Provoking a Player to commit a crime, Duty unbecoming of a JG officer (would entail Caretaker approval), Stealing, Resistance to Arrest (hiding out of any sort)..etc.
Isabelle (#26)
at the moment, justice council members 'do not' need to pardon people, if i'm not online, there will be another admin online, and if theres no admins online (when?) theres always a justice council admin noteboard for them to send me notes on.
It is really not a priority at the moment, the times where it might be handy for a council member to have pardon are few and far between.
When the time comes where i wish to have justice members handle it all by themselves, i will re-analyze the structure.
And which member are you referring to? If there is a player that has shown disregard for the justice council, and its purpose, let me know, and ill take it under advisement.
It is really not a priority at the moment, the times where it might be handy for a council member to have pardon are few and far between.
When the time comes where i wish to have justice members handle it all by themselves, i will re-analyze the structure.
And which member are you referring to? If there is a player that has shown disregard for the justice council, and its purpose, let me know, and ill take it under advisement.
weems (#27)
Okay Isabelle, why not just kill off the entire justice council then, and you can deal with ALL of it yourself?
If you aren't willing to take full responsibility for the crimes and deal with them yourself, then why say that the players 'arent ready' or some such?
After all, if they 'do not' need to pardon people, then they 'do not' need to jail people either, as you can do it all yourself, no?
Point being, the justice system obviously exists so that the Caretakers can attend to doing more important things. If you won't give them full responsibility of what they exist to do, then they shouldnt even exist, end of story.
Ocardus out.
If you aren't willing to take full responsibility for the crimes and deal with them yourself, then why say that the players 'arent ready' or some such?
After all, if they 'do not' need to pardon people, then they 'do not' need to jail people either, as you can do it all yourself, no?
Point being, the justice system obviously exists so that the Caretakers can attend to doing more important things. If you won't give them full responsibility of what they exist to do, then they shouldnt even exist, end of story.
Ocardus out.
Isabelle (#28)
the mud releases players, all the jc members need to do, is chase down the bad guys, jail them, and judge them accordingly, it ends there.
the only time they need help (from myself or the other admins) is when a player is jailed, and then the victim suddenly pardons them (after having reported them)
this is a rare event, and subsequently does not warrant me overhauling the entire council to only allow a few hand picked players to remain.
and, even after all this, i would have to have celeborn to code it to allow the players to pardon them. I'm not a coder, celeborn is the only one with access to change the code.
So im working with what i have, and what i have is fine, when the time comes when i require my council members to have the ability to pardon, we will then overhaul the council, and ask celeborn to begin coding some changes.
the only time they need help (from myself or the other admins) is when a player is jailed, and then the victim suddenly pardons them (after having reported them)
this is a rare event, and subsequently does not warrant me overhauling the entire council to only allow a few hand picked players to remain.
and, even after all this, i would have to have celeborn to code it to allow the players to pardon them. I'm not a coder, celeborn is the only one with access to change the code.
So im working with what i have, and what i have is fine, when the time comes when i require my council members to have the ability to pardon, we will then overhaul the council, and ask celeborn to begin coding some changes.
Shira (#29)
The fact that this person wasn't removed at that time, it was obvious caretakers didn't feel this JG member should be fired. So bringing up names would be pointless. However, I know my rights as JC now, I can simply pkill someone 20 times in a row, even when warned by other JC's that it was unbecoming of a JG to do so, and spam jailchat 24/7 without being punished. Oh, and I will have A caretaker defend me and even claim that they would have done the same. (Jailchat quote from caretaker)Isabelle wrote:And which member are you referring to? If there is a player that has shown disregard for the justice council, and its purpose, let me know, and ill take it under advisement.
And I KNOW this will be mentioned - this person got jailtime. Er...so what? It was STILL unbecoming of a JG to act as such and to have a caretaker
defend this person, yea I wasn't the least bit impressed. Okay, so she was warned, perhaps? I doubt that, because she even admitted on jailchat that she would do it again.
weems (#30)
So if you don't even have the power to change it, why are you defending it so feverishly?
It's not a complete overhaul either, everything stays the same except the JC's actually get full control of what they are supposed to do.
This is really quite simple, Isabelle. The JC's have a given purpose. They should be able to do their job, FULLY, and self sufficiently. If you don't think certain members are 'ready' for the responsibility, then those people shouldn't be JC's. Actually, im pretty even ZERA has said similiar things to this before.
It makes perfect logical sense to give JC's the power to pardon players.
It's not a complete overhaul either, everything stays the same except the JC's actually get full control of what they are supposed to do.
This is really quite simple, Isabelle. The JC's have a given purpose. They should be able to do their job, FULLY, and self sufficiently. If you don't think certain members are 'ready' for the responsibility, then those people shouldn't be JC's. Actually, im pretty even ZERA has said similiar things to this before.
It makes perfect logical sense to give JC's the power to pardon players.
Shira (#31)
It's not that simple as you think Weems. According to Isabelle, she's waiting for JC's to 'mature' and also, 'they [the JG's] are almost there.'
Honestly, after reviewing posts, it's obvious how Isabelle REALLY feels about JC's having more rights in her last post. She doesn't feel it's necessary, pt blank. Instead, she was wishy washy about the issue and made it sound that the JC's conduct and maturity are the reasons why such a change hasn't taken place yet. sigh.
Honestly, after reviewing posts, it's obvious how Isabelle REALLY feels about JC's having more rights in her last post. She doesn't feel it's necessary, pt blank. Instead, she was wishy washy about the issue and made it sound that the JC's conduct and maturity are the reasons why such a change hasn't taken place yet. sigh.
Dunadan (#32)
I think the JC system right now is fine the way it is. Back with the original system it was extremely hectic and corrupted, half the time people didn't know why people were in jail, when they got out, who put them in, and why someone else let them out. We started using the noteboard to do this, and it could probably be used for the releasing of pardoned criminals, however i do see some people totally forget (or ignore) the noteboard and it might be hard to find out when someone wrongfully releases a criminal. At the moment i think the system works alright, if they add changes then thats okay, if they don't add them then thats okay too. Right now it isn't the most important thing to be worrying about on the mud (especially when criminals are rare, and even rarer when pardoned).
Isabelle (#33)
lets say you run a guild
a player joins your guild
do you make them rank 9 right away, or do you let them move up the change of command, and make them earn your respect before you eventually give them greater powers / responsibilities?
theres no difference, i know who are ready, and i know who are not ready, but they are working their way there, and when they get there, then cool.
theres 3 ranks in the council, council master, council guard, and then the denied rank. So i cant pick which ones get pardon and which ones do not, they all have to be on board, and when they are, they will get better responsibilities.
a player joins your guild
do you make them rank 9 right away, or do you let them move up the change of command, and make them earn your respect before you eventually give them greater powers / responsibilities?
theres no difference, i know who are ready, and i know who are not ready, but they are working their way there, and when they get there, then cool.
theres 3 ranks in the council, council master, council guard, and then the denied rank. So i cant pick which ones get pardon and which ones do not, they all have to be on board, and when they are, they will get better responsibilities.
weems (#34)
Dunadan, so you are saying it's acceptable for JG's to be irresponsible and not read the board? If so, I would have to say I disagree.
If the JG isn't responsible enough to keep track of what's going on and respond appropriatly, then they shouldn't be one. End of story. It's not anymore complicated than that.
Giving the JG's the power to pardon will not corrupt the system. Logs are kept, by both the players and the system. If somebody is abusing their power, they are no longer a JG. That simple. There doesn't even need to be a whole lot of them. I think there are far more right now than there needs to be, if they had the appropiate level of power, and respect from the Immortals.
If the JG isn't responsible enough to keep track of what's going on and respond appropriatly, then they shouldn't be one. End of story. It's not anymore complicated than that.
Giving the JG's the power to pardon will not corrupt the system. Logs are kept, by both the players and the system. If somebody is abusing their power, they are no longer a JG. That simple. There doesn't even need to be a whole lot of them. I think there are far more right now than there needs to be, if they had the appropiate level of power, and respect from the Immortals.
Dunadan (#35)
I didn't say i'm fine with them ignoring the board, i was simply saying that some people do ignore the board, and that they don't even write a note when they jail someone (like they're supposed to).
weems (#36)
Then they shouldnt be a JG. There is a certain level of responsibility that goes along with the position, and if they arent at that level, then why are they kept?Dunadan wrote:I didn't say i'm fine with them ignoring the board, i was simply saying that some people do ignore the board, and that they don't even write a note when they jail someone (like they're supposed to).
Isabelle (#37)
You are using some idea of 'well if they arent perfect right off the bat, kick them out and bring in someone else'
why can't we induct people who show signs of 'possibly' being a good addition to the group, and let them grow, and mature?
and, who do i choose from, it's not as easy as 'well pick from the list of perfect players' because theres other things to consider, for example, there are some great players id like in, BUT, they believe in handling issues by themselves, quietly (because they believe they can) - this unfortunately conflicts with the justice council, because it means people could get pardoned, and 'dealt with privately' - i dont want that
so, i stick with what we have, if the player is newish, i'm willin to take a chance, and see how they work out.
why can't we induct people who show signs of 'possibly' being a good addition to the group, and let them grow, and mature?
and, who do i choose from, it's not as easy as 'well pick from the list of perfect players' because theres other things to consider, for example, there are some great players id like in, BUT, they believe in handling issues by themselves, quietly (because they believe they can) - this unfortunately conflicts with the justice council, because it means people could get pardoned, and 'dealt with privately' - i dont want that
so, i stick with what we have, if the player is newish, i'm willin to take a chance, and see how they work out.
weems (#38)
No, I never said that, but it goes without saying that if the JG isn't responsible enough to even read the noteboard, s/he probably isn't interested in it enough to be a good JG anyway.
Who do you choose from? A lot of the current JG's seem to be very responsible in their actions, some of them - not so much. But how many JG's are really needed?
Who do you choose from? A lot of the current JG's seem to be very responsible in their actions, some of them - not so much. But how many JG's are really needed?
Isabelle (#39)
i need 4 active during the day, and 4 active during the night
reason being, is that the jc members will not always be on a character which is suited for jailing, and may not even see that their presence is required, so total, i need 8 players that i can trust completely, (and trust that they will do 'what i want')
and as i mentioned before, i cant just pick players who are 'good' or 'trustworthy' i have to pick players who i know will do whats right for the council, and for the mud (basically a caretaker)
not as easy as it sounds, even when i find a player i think ooo, this player looks promising, i look at their alternate chars, and i find out oh, they randomly pkill people they dont like, or, they have been involved with cheating, or harassment or something in the past.
the position comes with a certain amount of political baggage i guess, because as you know, if i let someone in who had a shadey past, then id be dealing with 'You let THAT' person in?! 'Are you crazy?!'
thats how it is, and thats why i am not yet ready, or desiring to have the members be arbitrarily given the ability to pardon at will.
they are posting alot more now on the board, which i like, once they get in the habit of doing that full time, it can be considered.
reason being, is that the jc members will not always be on a character which is suited for jailing, and may not even see that their presence is required, so total, i need 8 players that i can trust completely, (and trust that they will do 'what i want')
and as i mentioned before, i cant just pick players who are 'good' or 'trustworthy' i have to pick players who i know will do whats right for the council, and for the mud (basically a caretaker)
not as easy as it sounds, even when i find a player i think ooo, this player looks promising, i look at their alternate chars, and i find out oh, they randomly pkill people they dont like, or, they have been involved with cheating, or harassment or something in the past.
the position comes with a certain amount of political baggage i guess, because as you know, if i let someone in who had a shadey past, then id be dealing with 'You let THAT' person in?! 'Are you crazy?!'
thats how it is, and thats why i am not yet ready, or desiring to have the members be arbitrarily given the ability to pardon at will.
they are posting alot more now on the board, which i like, once they get in the habit of doing that full time, it can be considered.
weems (#40)
Isn't that a bit too many?
Thats a significant portion of the playerbase, especially during the night time or on weekends when there is only 10 people on ANYWAY. Or even less. On weekend mornings its not uncommon to see 5 people online.
And even with a very large playerbase, could you really find 8 people that you COMPLETLY trusted?
And you need to realize maybe giving the JG's more responsibility will MAKE them more responsible? Or at least help weed out the bad ones quickly. And furthermore, I couldnt care less if you hired somebody with a 'bad history', as long as they do the job well.
Thats a significant portion of the playerbase, especially during the night time or on weekends when there is only 10 people on ANYWAY. Or even less. On weekend mornings its not uncommon to see 5 people online.
And even with a very large playerbase, could you really find 8 people that you COMPLETLY trusted?
And you need to realize maybe giving the JG's more responsibility will MAKE them more responsible? Or at least help weed out the bad ones quickly. And furthermore, I couldnt care less if you hired somebody with a 'bad history', as long as they do the job well.
Quintos (#41)
I think what Weems is trying to say is that he wants you to hire me!
I agree with Weems in that if you don't give the JC any power/responsibility above what they have, they won't just become responsible and trustworthy.
I agree with Weems in that if you don't give the JC any power/responsibility above what they have, they won't just become responsible and trustworthy.
Zeraphin (#42)
I have decided to post in this thread again. My last post was lost due to a mix up on my home PC.
It becomes apparent that there are apparently those "mature enough" to handle more responsibility, and those that aren't, but handle what they currently have just fine. My original post suggested to simply remove those not mature enough, so that those who remain can do a better overall job.
It should be widely known that I took a rather long break from the game. I don't claim to know all the details of what went on during that period of time, or how code changed, etc. For example, I know little of the crafting system, even though it was introduced while I was active, and has changed drasticly many times. I simply don't have the time to get on my mortal and learn all the facets of the system.
Justice Guard/Council/Whatever is another area that was setup while I wasn't around. It essentially uses the same code as the guilds, but in reading this entire thread again, I learn it doesn't have the full range of ranks.
It seems to me this need to be corrected. More ranks need to exist to provide a better heirarchy, and to give those who can be trusted with the power to lessen the work load of the Caretaker in regards to small daily matters the ability to use it. What those powers would be or might be is "step 2" .. The situation with having only a limit number of ranks needs to be addressed first.
On a final note, really unrelated to this thread but things in general: I grow very tired of the sheer lack of respect shown in game and on forums by players. Sometimes between individual players, but more often between players and Caretakers. If you don't have a nice way to say what you want done, don't expect me to take your side. I've seen several people drop my name as if I were on their side in some argument.. But the simple fact is the manner in which you post is so utterly disrespectful and lacking in even the most basic level of politeness that you lose any possibility of me coming to your defense.
If you can't show respect in your postings, or even simple common courtsey if you truly have no respect for the person you are responding to, you are not mature enough to have any responsibilities.
It becomes apparent that there are apparently those "mature enough" to handle more responsibility, and those that aren't, but handle what they currently have just fine. My original post suggested to simply remove those not mature enough, so that those who remain can do a better overall job.
It should be widely known that I took a rather long break from the game. I don't claim to know all the details of what went on during that period of time, or how code changed, etc. For example, I know little of the crafting system, even though it was introduced while I was active, and has changed drasticly many times. I simply don't have the time to get on my mortal and learn all the facets of the system.
Justice Guard/Council/Whatever is another area that was setup while I wasn't around. It essentially uses the same code as the guilds, but in reading this entire thread again, I learn it doesn't have the full range of ranks.
It seems to me this need to be corrected. More ranks need to exist to provide a better heirarchy, and to give those who can be trusted with the power to lessen the work load of the Caretaker in regards to small daily matters the ability to use it. What those powers would be or might be is "step 2" .. The situation with having only a limit number of ranks needs to be addressed first.
On a final note, really unrelated to this thread but things in general: I grow very tired of the sheer lack of respect shown in game and on forums by players. Sometimes between individual players, but more often between players and Caretakers. If you don't have a nice way to say what you want done, don't expect me to take your side. I've seen several people drop my name as if I were on their side in some argument.. But the simple fact is the manner in which you post is so utterly disrespectful and lacking in even the most basic level of politeness that you lose any possibility of me coming to your defense.
If you can't show respect in your postings, or even simple common courtsey if you truly have no respect for the person you are responding to, you are not mature enough to have any responsibilities.
