Powerleveling hurts everybody. For now, I am only going to talk about pre-epic leveling, as I feel it is the more unbalanced of the two aspects of leveling (pre-epic and epic). I may touch on epic as well towards the end, but for the most part please assume I am talking about pre-epic.
And anybody who says I am 'complaining' or 'whining' in this thread can honestly go to hell. I'm putting this thread in general chatter because it's less of an ideas topic and more of a general discussion into the nature of some powerleveling techniques. There may be some fixes/ideas in here, but it's not really the goal of the thread.
Why does powerleveling hurt everybody? Because difficulty is adjusted as an average between the person who uses the powerleveling techniques, and somebody who plays in a very raw fashion. The result is that the people who play by the books get a huge handicap, and powerlevelers have zero trouble at all.
Before I continue, I feel that I should probably define the word 'powerleveling' for the context of my discussion, so nobody gets confused or drawn into some superfluous arguement about semantics. Right now I am using the word to mean anybody who uses ANY equipment other than what can be obtained by mobiles which you can kill yourself, as well as any techniques that can be used to gain an unfair (by development standards) advantage, either by getting help from other people, or some other system. I am kind of melding the word powerleveling with another term for RPG's called 'twinking', which basically means pumping up a low level character with items that they would normally never be able to obtain. Anyway, for example...Using a clever technique you invented using a current skill to confuse a mobile and gain the upper hand is not powerleveling. However, logging an alt to subdue a huge quantity of mobiles, is. I also classify the over-usage of imbalanced player skills as powerleveling, which I will go into later.
Anyway, back to what I was saying. I think I was about to make a point how powerleveling hurts the people who abuse it, as well. Yes. It hurts the powerlevels as well because the benefits are so large that it waters down the game. The difficulty becomes absurdly easy, because the leveling has to stay fair for people who choose not to use the special techniques.
Common powerleveling things are:
1. Crafted items. They provide massive benefits far and away better than any mobile items, except maybe below level 10, and special circumstances like scarabs of insanity. By the time you hit even 25, the crafted gear allows you to kill almost anything with ease.
2. Charm. This is a bad one. You can gather swarms of mobiles to kill everything for you in a matter of seconds. The limit of charmies you can have at any given time is either infinite, or wayyy up there, to the point that it doesn't even matter.
3. Elemental jugs. These things will carry you to level 20 no problem. You can use them an infinite amount of times, and they summon up a level 10 elemental that beats the crap out of mobiles very very easily, up until about level 20 like I said.
4. Although not necessarily common, you still see people buffing up pre-epics, or subdueing mobiles for them from time to time. I won't go too deep into this, because it's fairly obvious whats wrong with it.
I could probably keep going on this note for quite a while, but those four are probably the biggest problem in my opinion. Crafted gear is really the crux, as the other three can be fixed fairly simply, with the exception of maybe number four.
Crafted gear allows there to be this MASSIVE variance between somebody who uses it and somebody who doesn't. The difference is so stupidly large that I'm not even sure how to approximate a possible fix for this. I actually am beggining to think that it would be a good idea to disallow making crafted items below level 50, and forcing the level of all current pre-50 items to 50. But this will never happen, too many people would hate this with a passion.
The charmed mobs can easily be fixed by putting a cap on the number of charmed creatures you have. One or two at most is probably more than fair. It still makes the spell useful, but prevents people from amassing an army. Considering all the other summon spells in existance, and the consideration of pets, I would put the cap at one.
Elemental jugs? Can't drink 'em unless you are at least level 15, and only one sip per jug before it dies. Fixed.
Anyway, I know some of you may call me a hypocrite, because I have used some of these tactics almost every time I level a tri-av (crafted eq, jugs), but just because I do it doesn't mean I don't think of it as bad. I can't really not do it because it puts me at such a huge time disadvantage compared to everybody else. I would much prefer if you couldn't use these cheesy techniques, though. Maybe they will get fixed some day.
As for number four, all we can do is ask eachother to please not do it, ever. Theres nothing worse than seeing somebody getting powerleveled.
Yes, that includes heals over a tell.
Powerleveling.
Started by weems on Feb 08, 2006 · 41 posts in thread
weems (#1)
lingolas (#2)
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...I actually am beggining to think that it would be a good idea to disallow making crafted items below level 50, and forcing the level of all current pre-50 items to 50. But this will never happen, too many people would hate this with a passion. The jug thing is rediculous, i got my alt to lvl 19 pretty easily using only academy gear with no weapons. I support the complete removal of the jugs. Not even one single elemental. Lowbies should stick to the good ol iron sword!
Charm. Never tried this. Thanks for the idea
number 4. I have no interest in this one. I dont subdue any mobs for anyone and never asked anyone to subdue any for me. I don't think i really care if other people are taking advantage of this though. Isn't this illegal?
weems (#3)
Yes, but that doesn't stop everybody.lingolas wrote:number 4. I have no interest in this one. I dont subdue any mobs for anyone and never asked anyone to subdue any for me. I don't think i really care if other people are taking advantage of this though. Isn't this illegal?
Isabelle (#4)
as per ideas weems was tossing my way -->
epic internal group levels should not differ by more than 100 -150 epic levels, ever
casting spells on lower levels - same rules
with the added epics can not cast buffs on non epic players
and the added level 50 players cannot cast 'powerful buffs' on pre level 30 players
subdue = gone
jugs = ditto, everything you said
i would boost it to be like 25 min level - and i'd like to be able to edit the actual creature being summoned, atm the creature that appears is hard coded.
epic dungeons - i need a way to make them immune to sleep and charm, the whole walking around with 20 charmed epic mobs, and 1 hit killing anything in your path - crap
the whole peaceful / pvp interaction - total crap, if i were in a bad mood, those peaceful players involved in the recent pvp powerlevelling would be sitting on an empty account.
if you leave the epic dungeons (logout - whatever) you are returned to dunly when you log back in.
and if the epic dungeon is empty upon being kicked out, then it resets to level 1-5
epic internal group levels should not differ by more than 100 -150 epic levels, ever
casting spells on lower levels - same rules
with the added epics can not cast buffs on non epic players
and the added level 50 players cannot cast 'powerful buffs' on pre level 30 players
subdue = gone
jugs = ditto, everything you said
i would boost it to be like 25 min level - and i'd like to be able to edit the actual creature being summoned, atm the creature that appears is hard coded.
epic dungeons - i need a way to make them immune to sleep and charm, the whole walking around with 20 charmed epic mobs, and 1 hit killing anything in your path - crap
the whole peaceful / pvp interaction - total crap, if i were in a bad mood, those peaceful players involved in the recent pvp powerlevelling would be sitting on an empty account.
if you leave the epic dungeons (logout - whatever) you are returned to dunly when you log back in.
and if the epic dungeon is empty upon being kicked out, then it resets to level 1-5
Isabelle (#5)
having charm on 'one' creature at a time is also a consideration
Silvanos (#6)
Why would you need to make them immune to charm right off the bat? I dont use charm at all, but the spell is there for gods sakes..much like elementals and summons..at least let ppl use it..just reduce the amount or weaken it somehow so that its not too powerful.
And Weems, your problem is with everyone powerlevelling? not just newbies who have something to learn? I myself have a pretty big portal filled with lots of combination items and in fact most of those arent crafted eq, nevertheless it would be seriously annoying not to be able to use them. Jugs i agree with because (for newbies) its a crutch that they need to get rid of in order to learn something, and ive said it for ages..but jugs i use...you know why? Because I dont have anything to learn anymore from pre-epic levelling. For me it is time based...a jug allows me to complete my char just that much faster...i could most certainly do without it. Ive stressed to lots of ppl asking me for eq that they can find lots of things in the areas of their level, and this i definitely want to promote...however turning off pre-50 crafted gear just to emphasize this I find preposterous actually...just to keep safe the few actual newbies who start crafting in order to improve their own levelling experience. 2ndly, on the crafting thing is that ive been levelling a few alts recently, and tho i dont usually group with ppl, ive seen quite a few chars walking about...and their EQ IS CRAP! Not OMG hes powerlevelling!, not hmm hes doing alright, not thats ok, not pretty bad...CRAP! I cant emphasize that enough
Theyre all mostly still wearing newbie eq right up into Arma, so much so that i dont understand how ppl manage to move forward...i guess its the grouping. So imo you certainly cant say that craft eq as a powerlevelling tool is widespread at least (If you are).
So conclusion:
Just power down charmies, dont make them useless
Prevent jugs being used by any non-epic..at all!
Leave craft eq as is it is..its abs. not a problem imo
And promote exploration (once again!
) for eq (I myself might be posting a list of areas ppl should explore for newbie gear)
And Weems, your problem is with everyone powerlevelling? not just newbies who have something to learn? I myself have a pretty big portal filled with lots of combination items and in fact most of those arent crafted eq, nevertheless it would be seriously annoying not to be able to use them. Jugs i agree with because (for newbies) its a crutch that they need to get rid of in order to learn something, and ive said it for ages..but jugs i use...you know why? Because I dont have anything to learn anymore from pre-epic levelling. For me it is time based...a jug allows me to complete my char just that much faster...i could most certainly do without it. Ive stressed to lots of ppl asking me for eq that they can find lots of things in the areas of their level, and this i definitely want to promote...however turning off pre-50 crafted gear just to emphasize this I find preposterous actually...just to keep safe the few actual newbies who start crafting in order to improve their own levelling experience. 2ndly, on the crafting thing is that ive been levelling a few alts recently, and tho i dont usually group with ppl, ive seen quite a few chars walking about...and their EQ IS CRAP! Not OMG hes powerlevelling!, not hmm hes doing alright, not thats ok, not pretty bad...CRAP! I cant emphasize that enough
Theyre all mostly still wearing newbie eq right up into Arma, so much so that i dont understand how ppl manage to move forward...i guess its the grouping. So imo you certainly cant say that craft eq as a powerlevelling tool is widespread at least (If you are).So conclusion:
Just power down charmies, dont make them useless
Prevent jugs being used by any non-epic..at all!
Leave craft eq as is it is..its abs. not a problem imo
And promote exploration (once again!
) for eq (I myself might be posting a list of areas ppl should explore for newbie gear)
weems (#7)
Silvanos, maybe you like tri-av'ing a character in three days flat, with zero to no resistance from mobiles. Maybe because you feel that there is nothing left for you to learn from them, like you said. I personally, after have recently done it, feel that it cheapens the whole experience. I don't even feel proud of my character, Terminus, because it has taken barely any effort to get him where he is.
However, regardless...I don't feel newbies have anything to learn the mechanics of pre-epic leveling. The techniques, skills, attitude, mindset, are all completely different from how epics is.
Epic is all about getting the highest end crafted gear, and grinding in epics. You notice a lot of epic people simply don't know what to do with themselves anymore. I feel that epic areas would completely change the game into something infinitly better. Maybe it wouldn't matter as much if pre-epic levelling is cheapend if there were tasks to do as an epic character.
However, regardless...I don't feel newbies have anything to learn the mechanics of pre-epic leveling. The techniques, skills, attitude, mindset, are all completely different from how epics is.
Epic is all about getting the highest end crafted gear, and grinding in epics. You notice a lot of epic people simply don't know what to do with themselves anymore. I feel that epic areas would completely change the game into something infinitly better. Maybe it wouldn't matter as much if pre-epic levelling is cheapend if there were tasks to do as an epic character.
Arureal (#8)
Weems
For the most part, I agree with you. I have complained about powerleveling for a long time, most of you older players know why, I won't cover old ground here. Some of the most abused methods of powerleveling have been dealt with already.
Charm, Subdueing, Buffing and Elemental jugs should also be fixed, I agree. However, the removal of crafted items from non-epic gameplay is not a good idea. For me at least, pre-epic play is the game, epics is just something to do with a character you are fond of after completing the game. If I had to wait till epic to craft, I would quit playing. I solo, and crafted gear helps the solo player level without dying a lot, but does not make it too easy to level.
At one time DL was all about getting the best mob gear, which was fine if you knew where to get the good stuff, but most new players do not know. They had to join a guild to find out, or an older player needed to take them under their wing and teach them. Getting rid of pre-epic crafting would be a giant step back to those days, and some of that good mob gear don't exist anymore.
Below level 25 you will find a lot of mob gear that is better than what can be crafted, at those levels you will find me wearing a mix of reforged mob gear and crafted items. Above level 25, crafted gear gets better than what you get off mobs, with the rare exception. However I do not see a problem with crafted eq at this level either. I have seen players with better eq than I have, dying in groups in the same areas I solo in. If you don't know how to play, crafted eq can only help so much.
If the other problems with powerleveling are dealt with, crafted eq will not be a problem as the effects are cumulitive with the above listed powerleveling tactics.
Arureal
High Lord of Lowbies
For the most part, I agree with you. I have complained about powerleveling for a long time, most of you older players know why, I won't cover old ground here. Some of the most abused methods of powerleveling have been dealt with already.
Charm, Subdueing, Buffing and Elemental jugs should also be fixed, I agree. However, the removal of crafted items from non-epic gameplay is not a good idea. For me at least, pre-epic play is the game, epics is just something to do with a character you are fond of after completing the game. If I had to wait till epic to craft, I would quit playing. I solo, and crafted gear helps the solo player level without dying a lot, but does not make it too easy to level.
At one time DL was all about getting the best mob gear, which was fine if you knew where to get the good stuff, but most new players do not know. They had to join a guild to find out, or an older player needed to take them under their wing and teach them. Getting rid of pre-epic crafting would be a giant step back to those days, and some of that good mob gear don't exist anymore.
Below level 25 you will find a lot of mob gear that is better than what can be crafted, at those levels you will find me wearing a mix of reforged mob gear and crafted items. Above level 25, crafted gear gets better than what you get off mobs, with the rare exception. However I do not see a problem with crafted eq at this level either. I have seen players with better eq than I have, dying in groups in the same areas I solo in. If you don't know how to play, crafted eq can only help so much.
If the other problems with powerleveling are dealt with, crafted eq will not be a problem as the effects are cumulitive with the above listed powerleveling tactics.
Arureal
High Lord of Lowbies
weems (#9)
Hrm, I would have to disagree with you on the difference between crafted equipment and mobile equipment. It is tremendous, especially when done correclty. Starts at like level 20. Or even 1, if you decided to take an emeralite mining pick along with you while leveling, heh.
Honestly, I already stated specifically in my thread that I wasn't trying to get it put in, and that I was just throwing it out there, so I'm not entirely sure why people are jumping on me about it, as it was completely beside the point of the thread. The point of the thread is to just open peoples minds into accepting the fact that it IS, indeed, powerleveling, regardless of whether or not they choose to do it.
It cheapens the game at the pre-epic leveling standpoint. You can fix some of the symptoms, but the disease will always be there.
The real fix is moving the game content away from pre-epic, and over to epics, where every character inevitably ends up. Shrug, thats what I feel.
Honestly, I already stated specifically in my thread that I wasn't trying to get it put in, and that I was just throwing it out there, so I'm not entirely sure why people are jumping on me about it, as it was completely beside the point of the thread. The point of the thread is to just open peoples minds into accepting the fact that it IS, indeed, powerleveling, regardless of whether or not they choose to do it.
It cheapens the game at the pre-epic leveling standpoint. You can fix some of the symptoms, but the disease will always be there.
The real fix is moving the game content away from pre-epic, and over to epics, where every character inevitably ends up. Shrug, thats what I feel.
Kiasyn (#10)
Perhaps we should up mobile equipment to better compete with crafted equipment and adjust the mobiles accordingly.
lingolas (#11)
I personally dont see lvl 15 and below with crafted equ as a problem. I dont know how much things have changed, but while i was still active, it was better to get mob's equ than to get crafted equ at such a low level. As for an emeralite pick as a weapon, what percent of the mud population actually have an emeralite pick? for lvl 15-50, I think that a combination of crafted equ and mob's equ is best and if that's the case what's wrong with it? For example, even though i can make bracelets, necklaces, and glasses, It is a bit pointless to make them any lesser than lvl 50. Despite my town, i still support a complete removal of crafted equ for levels below 50. Crafted equ are power and so they are more appropriate with epic characters. Without non epic level crafted equ, players would be forced to use mob equ. This gives monster's equ more purpose and also it helps stablizing the difficulty level of NPCs. I have voiced my concern over the difficulty range of NPCs a long time ago but no one seemed to pay any attention. If no action is taken, i predict that NPCs will get stronger and stronger to accomodate well established players with powerful lowbies elevating the difficulty gradient. This will make it extremely difficult for a new players to progress.
voska (#12)
personally, i will level up to tri-av with the same eq i pick up when i first start my eq, i have no need for crafted eq. I believe it's the skill that makes the player (for the most part) not the eq. I also agree that jugs r a bit overpowered. Charming i can also see being a bit overpowered but i never really use it to level up (altho i should try it once). lastly, i havnt seen the subdue powerleveling being used in a while, i can understand removing it to prevent powerleveling, but those in epics also get punished b/c they cant use it either. anyway, thats my 2 cents
Quintos (#13)
This doesn't solve anything, unless the mobiles are made more difficult with the equipment. By strengthening the rest of the equipment, we make the game too easy for anyone who doesn't have crafted equipment. If we make mobile equipment on par with their crafted counterparts and also increase the difficulty of mobiles, we will have a (relatively) balanced system that isn't too easy.Kiasyn wrote:Perhaps we should up mobile equipment to better compete with crafted equipment and adjust the mobiles accordingly.
Kamseki Estel (#14)
I agree with lingolas about removing crafted eq BUT we shouldnt remove crafted weapons for those lvls cause some classes say...Clerics or Mages as first class have such weapons that are hard to find weapons for (and id know cause i gotta druid using staves) But in order to even it out where they aren't 'overpowering' They should get absolutely NO enchantment or extremely little for those of us practicing crafts and they shouldnt be able to be sharpen. Also if they are 50 and lower they should always fail when you try anything higher than bronze,2nd best wood,and so on. I've had maybe only one character make it without crafted weapons so far and it was not exactly fun dieing 6times in a row case i didn't do enough damage to kill the mob before it killed me.
Chilliwack (#15)
any weapon can be sharpened/reinforced... maybe you should have to get some kind of like, sharpening stone, which costs alot, to be able to do it...Kamseki wrote:and they shouldnt be able to be sharpen
as for reinforcing weapons, you probably would have to buy some kind of thing to like, coat it with, to make it harder to do more damage.
wheeeeeeeeeee
Kiasyn (#16)
Yes, thats what I meant by adjusting the mobilesQuintos wrote:This doesn't solve anything, unless the mobiles are made more difficult with the equipment. By strengthening the rest of the equipment, we make the game too easy for anyone who doesn't have crafted equipment. If we make mobile equipment on par with their crafted counterparts and also increase the difficulty of mobiles, we will have a (relatively) balanced system that isn't too easy.Kiasyn wrote:Perhaps we should up mobile equipment to better compete with crafted equipment and adjust the mobiles accordingly.
Gilgolad (#17)
Why not make equipment found in mobs random like in most MMORPGs?
That way you might get junk, or you might get something worthwhile?
Charming is a skill only certain classes can learn right? Well, adjust the number of mobs you can have in tow and it should balance out pretty quickly.
Elemental jugs? Yeah, they say one sip so thats all there oughta be. A one time use creature.
Crafted eq for under lev 50.....i think maybe stuff under lev 50 should have a severe handicap as to the amount of enchant space it can have, and some downplaying on the damage and dam reductions they give.
If you do this though, you may have to tone down the difficulty level of some mobs for the sake of brand new players. OR revamp the leveling system. Instead of 5000exp per level, make it like other MMORPGs and make the amount you need per level grow as you get higher up. And perhaps some more bonuses upon leveling, so leveling has more of a point. If it weren't for the equipment you wear, every level you gain does you NO good at all except maybe a small increase in AR. What if it were so you wouldnt have to worry as much about your base stats and have to worry more about increasing your dam red and AR and Dam roll? Then people couldnt just pick up a super weapon and own everything, instead they'd have to work for their attack strength. the other stats should play more of a supporting role, as in less than the do now, so you dont need 50 strength to do damage and instead need to focus on ar and dam roll to up your attack.
That way you might get junk, or you might get something worthwhile?
Charming is a skill only certain classes can learn right? Well, adjust the number of mobs you can have in tow and it should balance out pretty quickly.
Elemental jugs? Yeah, they say one sip so thats all there oughta be. A one time use creature.
Crafted eq for under lev 50.....i think maybe stuff under lev 50 should have a severe handicap as to the amount of enchant space it can have, and some downplaying on the damage and dam reductions they give.
If you do this though, you may have to tone down the difficulty level of some mobs for the sake of brand new players. OR revamp the leveling system. Instead of 5000exp per level, make it like other MMORPGs and make the amount you need per level grow as you get higher up. And perhaps some more bonuses upon leveling, so leveling has more of a point. If it weren't for the equipment you wear, every level you gain does you NO good at all except maybe a small increase in AR. What if it were so you wouldnt have to worry as much about your base stats and have to worry more about increasing your dam red and AR and Dam roll? Then people couldnt just pick up a super weapon and own everything, instead they'd have to work for their attack strength. the other stats should play more of a supporting role, as in less than the do now, so you dont need 50 strength to do damage and instead need to focus on ar and dam roll to up your attack.
Dourht (#18)
To bad DL isnt a MMORPG.
Chilliwack (#19)
i know its sarcasm but its not too bad at all, wheeeeeeeee
Gilgolad (#20)
I suppose i got the point way too late. DL isnt trying to be a run of the mill MMORPG. It needs to be different or it'd be same old same old. I just think there's some things we might be able to learn from them.Dourht wrote:To bad DL isnt a MMORPG.
Lhile (#21)
I do powerlevel way too much.
Jugs: I do agree with your ideas on that.
Charm: I agree with that too. And the removal of subdue.
I do disagree with wiping out all crafted equipment below level 50...This would make the goal of the game to get to epic as fast as you can so you can craft and actually do stuff, thus increasing powerlevelling to get there faster.
If we were to do this crafted equipment thing and make epic areas, then I think we should change the levelling system a bit. Maybe instead of reaching 50 before you multiclass, maybe we should make it something lower like 25? Or even lower. But this would get difficult since just about EVERYTHING would have to get changed. Areas, Mobiles, Equipment...But it would make things a bit better if epic areas were to come in.
I know I really don't have room to talk, but we have sucked all the fun out of the game with all the cheating and stuff. It has made the game so unrealistic and no one roleplays anymore :/
I know I have never been one to roleplay very hard, but I think I'm going to start exploring and getting more into what the game was really about rather than just trying to outdo everyone. As should some of you...
Jugs: I do agree with your ideas on that.
Charm: I agree with that too. And the removal of subdue.
I do disagree with wiping out all crafted equipment below level 50...This would make the goal of the game to get to epic as fast as you can so you can craft and actually do stuff, thus increasing powerlevelling to get there faster.
If we were to do this crafted equipment thing and make epic areas, then I think we should change the levelling system a bit. Maybe instead of reaching 50 before you multiclass, maybe we should make it something lower like 25? Or even lower. But this would get difficult since just about EVERYTHING would have to get changed. Areas, Mobiles, Equipment...But it would make things a bit better if epic areas were to come in.
I know I really don't have room to talk, but we have sucked all the fun out of the game with all the cheating and stuff. It has made the game so unrealistic and no one roleplays anymore :/
I know I have never been one to roleplay very hard, but I think I'm going to start exploring and getting more into what the game was really about rather than just trying to outdo everyone. As should some of you...
Quintos (#22)
The idea has been bounced around many times to get rid of pre-epic levelling and it would be a good idea, if properly implemented.
As it stands, pre-epic levelling is what teaches players about the game, however, and unless we can make a large amount of newbie epic levels (which could be accomplished by changing current areas into epic levels), we would end up with a lower degree of competence in our playerbase.
If we were to do something like this, I would suggest having epic levelling work simultaneously with regular epiccing where e1-e50 would be levelling your first class, then either gain your second class right away or have to level to e100. This means that by e150, or a slightly later level, a character would have all of their classes.
In the current epic system, this would just breed more power levelling, but with the introduction of more epic levels, it provides for the possibilty of instantized areas that change depending on the level of the character.
As it stands, pre-epic levelling is what teaches players about the game, however, and unless we can make a large amount of newbie epic levels (which could be accomplished by changing current areas into epic levels), we would end up with a lower degree of competence in our playerbase.
If we were to do something like this, I would suggest having epic levelling work simultaneously with regular epiccing where e1-e50 would be levelling your first class, then either gain your second class right away or have to level to e100. This means that by e150, or a slightly later level, a character would have all of their classes.
In the current epic system, this would just breed more power levelling, but with the introduction of more epic levels, it provides for the possibilty of instantized areas that change depending on the level of the character.
Chilliwack (#23)
we would end up with a lower degree of competence in our playerbase. quote]
i can do that easily
i can do that easily
Arureal (#24)
A long time ago I suggested one change that would put the brakes on powerleveling, and make it take longer to level. Normaly I do not like to repeat myself, but this idea was on the old forum several years back.
When grouping, split the experience between members of the group. I see no reason why every member of a group should get the same experience as someone who killed it solo. I have seen groups large enough that not everyone can even get a hit on the mob before it is defeated. Yet they all get the same experience, no fair.
I have nothing against grouping as it allows players to take on tougher mobs than they could handle solo. But it also allows for very fast leveling. I belive this method would slow leveling, but still make grouping usefull for tough mobs, as the exp. that is being split is higher, and a group can still kill more mobs than a solo player in the same amount of time.
Arureal
High Lord of Lowbies
When grouping, split the experience between members of the group. I see no reason why every member of a group should get the same experience as someone who killed it solo. I have seen groups large enough that not everyone can even get a hit on the mob before it is defeated. Yet they all get the same experience, no fair.
I have nothing against grouping as it allows players to take on tougher mobs than they could handle solo. But it also allows for very fast leveling. I belive this method would slow leveling, but still make grouping usefull for tough mobs, as the exp. that is being split is higher, and a group can still kill more mobs than a solo player in the same amount of time.
Arureal
High Lord of Lowbies
Quintos (#25)
Arureal, while I see the reasoning behind the idea, it really only encourages players to solo. There are many players that could level as fast as one of the large groups you talk of if they equipped themselves to the best of their abilities. I would not be opposed to the idea of lowering the experience for groups, but not splitting it. Perhaps 80-90% experience or 75% for the group but 100% for whoever delivers the killing blow.
lingolas (#26)
i personally dont find any problems with what we currently have. grouping is what makes leveling fun. As far as experience goes, I think it is fine the way how it is. Sure, maybe an individual didnt do any hit, that individual is still part of the battle and learn something from it. When people go to war, not every soldiers will have the opportunity to shoot the enemy but they sure will gain alot of experience compared to someone who didnt go to war even if they didn't get to do squat in combats.
If you want to make things fair, i say we make monsters attack multimple players at once. That way, everyone share a bit of pain. Otherwise, no pain no gain. :p
If you want to make things fair, i say we make monsters attack multimple players at once. That way, everyone share a bit of pain. Otherwise, no pain no gain. :p
Nuitari (#27)
What is the point of this, to make finding an epic group even harder than it is now?Isabelle wrote:epic internal group levels should not differ by more than 100 -150 epic levels, ever
Epic level doesn't equal strength, anyways, the vast majority of a player's power comes from equipment and character build. Equipment is capped at e500 anyways, and most players don't have jewellery over e250 or weapons/armor over e350 anyways....so why shouldn't an epic level 700 character be able to group with an epic level 1000 character? Chances are, there's no one else on for the epic level 700 to group with and there is definitely no one else on for the epic level 1000 to group with. They are probably very similar in strength and don't have any other options for grouping.
As for bringing lowbies along to epic giving better XP; that's not really abuse, that's compensating for a levelling system that's not properly designed to scale to the levels that some players have now achieved. I have to kill epic level 1000 mobs with mostly e200-e300 gear for a meastly 13 xp for the normal ones, 26 for the stronger ones, and 52 for the elite ones. While I agree that bringing lower-level characters along shouldn't grant more XP, high-level players shouldn't be REQUIRED to drag a lowbie along to level at anything approaching a reasonable rate. As it is, epicing with a lowbie gives me reasonable XP, still less than most people get, and epicing without one is futile. If you want to "fix" players dragging lowbies along to gain more xp, be my guest, but first make it feasible to level without them.
Jerardo (#28)
Suggestions/reply:
Crafts
The main problem I see is a huge huge variance between mobile and crafted eq. Most/all mobiles are balance for players who uses all mobile equipment. Craft >>>>>>> mobile eq + everyone craft = easy mobile. A possible solution has been mentioned above: make mobile eq on par with craft and increase mobile npcs drastically accordingly. *however, this is speaking from a meleer pov. Casters should also be taken into consideration to balance if the mobiles get more powerful.
A possible solution would be perhaps not enable enchanting pre level 40 eq.
And I think charm and elemental jugs are nerfed according to Cele in his post: /t/1175/
Crafts
The main problem I see is a huge huge variance between mobile and crafted eq. Most/all mobiles are balance for players who uses all mobile equipment. Craft >>>>>>> mobile eq + everyone craft = easy mobile. A possible solution has been mentioned above: make mobile eq on par with craft and increase mobile npcs drastically accordingly. *however, this is speaking from a meleer pov. Casters should also be taken into consideration to balance if the mobiles get more powerful.
A possible solution would be perhaps not enable enchanting pre level 40 eq.
And I think charm and elemental jugs are nerfed according to Cele in his post: /t/1175/
Arureal (#29)
Much better response that I got some years back, good points people. Spliting the exp. for a group may be a little excessive, must have been some of my old killer DM slipping out. Quintos had a cool suggestion, full exp for the player that lands the killing blow and 75% to 90% of that amount for the rest of the party. That would slow leveling a reasonable amount. Lingolas also had an excellent idea, mobs with special attacks for groups, so that the party gets to share the pain, cool concept. Nuitari pointed out some things concerning epic level play that I had not thought of, as I don't epic. Thank you all for the posts.
Arureal
High Lord of Lowbies
Arureal
High Lord of Lowbies
Thremp (#30)
Why are lowbie epics getting so much more exp than higher levels... Why does it decrease down to 1/10.
Start em out at like 75/150/300 and then drop it 25% per 100 epic levels.
This would help cut it down. Also Quintos's idea is good.
Torrim, you're a powerleveller plain and simple. Just because you came up with a cool innocative solution doesn't really changet what you're doing.
Edit: After further consideration the epic XP idea kinda sucks and really wouldn't improve things.
Start em out at like 75/150/300 and then drop it 25% per 100 epic levels.
This would help cut it down. Also Quintos's idea is good.
Torrim, you're a powerleveller plain and simple. Just because you came up with a cool innocative solution doesn't really changet what you're doing.
Edit: After further consideration the epic XP idea kinda sucks and really wouldn't improve things.
lingolas (#31)
CODE · MUD Output
Why are lowbie epics getting so much more exp than higher levels... If you still dont understand then read on.
an analogy would be like learning how to ride a bike. You gain alot of experience the first few times you ride your bike as a child. Now as you ride your bike for the millionth time at the age of 21, you dont gain much bike riding experience. Not to confuse with how much biking experience you have TOTAL. It is just that you dont get any additional experience.
Nuitari (#32)
And you're a newbie with no manners, plain and simple. Unless you have an e1000 character hiding somewhere that I'm not aware of, you have no idea what you're talking about and it would behoove you to refrain from insulting people who DO know what they are talking about.Thremp wrote:Why are lowbie epics getting so much more exp than higher levels... Why does it decrease down to 1/10.
Start em out at like 75/150/300 and then drop it 25% per 100 epic levels.
This would help cut it down. Also Quintos's idea is good.
Torrim, you're a powerleveller plain and simple. Just because you came up with a cool innocative solution doesn't really changet what you're doing.
Thank you.
Isabelle (#33)
not allowing wide ranges of levels to group together can still work, if you give it a cut off point.
in my opinion, anything epic 100+ should be a fair cut off point
anything pre epic 100 should have rules (because theres enough people to do it)
level 40 grouped with a level 20, /i/ consider abuse.
just my stance, if a person does it, in my books they are a cheater, and an exploiter, and i have little use for them.
there are some rules on powerlevelling which can be enforced, like a level 50 powerlevelling a level 1 character... But personally, i would rather not have the rules there, and instead have some coded enforcement. (less rules = more fun in mud)
in my opinion, anything epic 100+ should be a fair cut off point
anything pre epic 100 should have rules (because theres enough people to do it)
level 40 grouped with a level 20, /i/ consider abuse.
just my stance, if a person does it, in my books they are a cheater, and an exploiter, and i have little use for them.
there are some rules on powerlevelling which can be enforced, like a level 50 powerlevelling a level 1 character... But personally, i would rather not have the rules there, and instead have some coded enforcement. (less rules = more fun in mud)
Nuitari (#34)
Isabelle wrote:not allowing wide ranges of levels to group together can still work, if you give it a cut off point.
in my opinion, anything epic 100+ should be a fair cut off point
anything pre epic 100 should have rules (because theres enough people to do it)
level 40 grouped with a level 20, /i/ consider abuse.
just my stance, if a person does it, in my books they are a cheater, and an exploiter, and i have little use for them.
there are some rules on powerlevelling which can be enforced, like a level 50 powerlevelling a level 1 character... But personally, i would rather not have the rules there, and instead have some coded enforcement. (less rules = more fun in mud)
The cut off point is a good idea; levels mean a lot more than epic levels. I don't LIKE having code preventing wide-level-range groups, as there are legitimate situations in which a level 20 could group with a level 40(level 20/20/20 with great crafted gear and who knows the game well grouped with a level 40 single classed newbie using partial mob gear) and it doesn't make much sense for you to not be able to group together; but in this case I think that's a better alternative than letting cheaters run rampant.
Thremp (#35)
You're right. Bringing a lowbie warrior to epic with a much higher level warrior after they subdue the mobs and then letting them do the killing blow so it results in 5x-10x the XP isn't powerlevelling at all.Nuitari wrote:And you're a newbie with no manners, plain and simple. Unless you have an e1000 character hiding somewhere that I'm not aware of, you have no idea what you're talking about and it would behoove you to refrain from insulting people who DO know what they are talking about.Thremp wrote:Why are lowbie epics getting so much more exp than higher levels... Why does it decrease down to 1/10.
Start em out at like 75/150/300 and then drop it 25% per 100 epic levels.
This would help cut it down. Also Quintos's idea is good.
Torrim, you're a powerleveller plain and simple. Just because you came up with a cool innocative solution doesn't really changet what you're doing.
Thank you.
You know I actually think that was Celeborn's intention.
[[ Edited out - we dont need this ]]
Newbie or not. Levelling like that isn't how it was intended.
Eventine (#36)
Being one of only a VERY small handful of players(probably 2, not counting torrim himself) that have actually epicced his character at his level, i can safely say i don't fit into the category of "those that don't know what they're talking about" in reference to epic experience...
Here's a point everyone seems to be overlooking when dealing with Torrim's complaint about the experience gains at his level.
at level 49/49/49 and attempting to triav a char in arma, if i remember correctly your exp per kill is somewhere in the area of 47 exp.
If 47 exp per kill is what a level 49 triclass char is getting...WHY is it so hard to grasp the concept of a character 1000 levels higher getting "a measely 13 to 52 exp per kill"?
I think a drop of 5 to 34 xp per kill in exchange for 1000 levels is a pretty good deal
P.S.
Newbies are people too, and without them ANY game grows stagnant and dies.
Here's a point everyone seems to be overlooking when dealing with Torrim's complaint about the experience gains at his level.
at level 49/49/49 and attempting to triav a char in arma, if i remember correctly your exp per kill is somewhere in the area of 47 exp.
If 47 exp per kill is what a level 49 triclass char is getting...WHY is it so hard to grasp the concept of a character 1000 levels higher getting "a measely 13 to 52 exp per kill"?
I think a drop of 5 to 34 xp per kill in exchange for 1000 levels is a pretty good deal
P.S.
Newbies are people too, and without them ANY game grows stagnant and dies.
Isabelle (#37)
one thing people are overlooking
13 experience in my opinion isnt reasonable, 50 experience is reasonable, maybe 75 on the top end (pushing it)
is that the only reason for select people wanting to be grouped with level nothing players?
and no, a level 20 player should not be able to attack a level 40 creature and survive ... IF, the equipment allows them to do it, then the system is broken, and the gear needs to be fixed, or mobiles need to be made stronger.
from levels 1 - 50, i believe you should gain a 'fair' amount of experience per kill, everytime, and, do so within a level range of maybe 5 levels.
i think damagereduction is the tool that could theoretically be used to handle this.
13 experience in my opinion isnt reasonable, 50 experience is reasonable, maybe 75 on the top end (pushing it)
is that the only reason for select people wanting to be grouped with level nothing players?
and no, a level 20 player should not be able to attack a level 40 creature and survive ... IF, the equipment allows them to do it, then the system is broken, and the gear needs to be fixed, or mobiles need to be made stronger.
from levels 1 - 50, i believe you should gain a 'fair' amount of experience per kill, everytime, and, do so within a level range of maybe 5 levels.
i think damagereduction is the tool that could theoretically be used to handle this.
Nuitari (#38)
Thremp wrote:You're right. Bringing a lowbie warrior to epic with a much higher level warrior after they subdue the mobs and then letting them do the killing blow so it results in 5x-10x the XP isn't powerlevelling at all.
You know I actually think that was Celeborn's intention.
[[ Edited out - we dont need this ]]
Newbie or not. Levelling like that isn't how it was intended.
That's correct, that ISNT how it was intended. That's why I've been saying to fix the increased XP from epicing lowbies and increase the normal xp you get/give high level players the ability to get gear of their level.
The lowbies are a stopgap solution to a problem with epicing. As such, it isn't the best solution, but it's better than no solution, and removing it without putting a permanent solution in will stop high-level epicing in its tracks(even WITH it, very few people bother to epic far past e500).
That's correct, but the level 49 only gets that bad xp for one level(it's almost twice that for level 48), he has access to gear of his level/similar level, he can use summons/pets to help him level(those are useless in epics), he probably has people of his level to group with, and he's getting 47 exp per kill towards a REAL level, which is something like 30 epic levels in terms of complexity, 10+ epic levels in terms of hp/mana, and a lot of epic levels in terms of gear.Eventine wrote:Being one of only a VERY small handful of players(probably 2, not counting torrim himself) that have actually epicced his character at his level, i can safely say i don't fit into the category of "those that don't know what they're talking about" in reference to epic experience...
Here's a point everyone seems to be overlooking when dealing with Torrim's complaint about the experience gains at his level.
at level 49/49/49 and attempting to triav a char in arma, if i remember correctly your exp per kill is somewhere in the area of 47 exp.
If 47 exp per kill is what a level 49 triclass char is getting...WHY is it so hard to grasp the concept of a character 1000 levels higher getting "a measely 13 to 52 exp per kill"?
I think a drop of 5 to 34 xp per kill in exchange for 1000 levels is a pretty good deal Razz
I don't argue that low-epic levels should be eaiser than higher epic levels, but the levellng system is supposed to be infinite and I think that the way it's scaling downwards now undermines that. I think the best solution is a cut-off point for XP and removal of the crafting level cap.
I get 12-13 xp for most of the mobs, 24-26 for the exceptional ones or whatever, and about 50 for the elite ones(which have about 5500 damage reduction and 26000-105000 hp). I don't get 75 XP for ANYTHING. With a lowbie, I get something along the lines of 70/140/210 XP, but I have to subdue them(no criticals or severs), the lowbie has to be able to damage them(a lot of them can't), the lowbies die left and right(slowing me down), I have to epic in spiders because my traps kill lowbies(so no gold, tomes, gems, wax tablets or anything; I have to sacrifice those to get XP), I actually have to FIND an appropriate lowbie who wants to epic with me(which doesn't happen very often), I have to do all the tanking, and I always have to lead(most players don't lead in epics, they just follow around afk and gain free xp; I EARN every single experience point I get).Isabelle wrote:13 experience in my opinion isnt reasonable, 50 experience is reasonable, maybe 75 on the top end (pushing it)
EDIT: those numbers were for the spiders; dragons seem to be giving 12-14/37-38/77 for normal/exceptional/elite.
Yes, the XP is the only reason I drag lowbies along. They slow me down, force me to use subdue, don't help kill the mobs, die a lot, and force me to use the spiders(I use dragons or crytps on my own).Isabelle wrote:is that the only reason for select people wanting to be grouped with level nothing players?
Nuitari (#39)
A level 20 killing a level 40 mob is and should be possible. There are little things called "skill" and "strategy" that make this possible.Isabelle wrote:and no, a level 20 player should not be able to attack a level 40 creature and survive ... IF, the equipment allows them to do it, then the system is broken, and the gear needs to be fixed, or mobiles need to be made stronger.
A level 40 mob shouldn't be designed to be killed by a level 20 player, and in a good system the vast majority of level 20 players wouldn't stand a chance against a level 40 mob, but skill and tactics are as much a part of levelling as the mindless grind of killing thousands of mobs in a row.
Take, for example, a level 20 druid/mage pixie with level 20 crafted gear fighting a level 40 melee mob. The player can cast entangle on the mob, re-casting it when it wears off, while retreating and shooting arrow spells at it. The arrows aren't going to do much damage compared to the mob's hp, but the player can have a lot of mana on his gear, rgy runes in his spells, and mana-restorative drinks in his inventory. Chances are, it would take him a while to kill the mob and it wouldn't be worth his time to kill the level 40 mob in the same time he could have killed 10 of his level mobs and gained 5 times the xp he got from that level 40 mob, but he CAN do it.
Arureal (#40)
Nuitari: Shhhhhh, you are giving away my secrets. 
Arureal
High lord of Lowbies
Arureal
High lord of Lowbies
Nuitari (#41)
Then you're a much better player than most of the playerbase these days.
We seem to have four kinds of players, when it comes to levelling:
1. those who grind through levelling using the most simple, obvious means and call anyone who does anything else a cheater
2. those who devise and use their own tactics to level more effectively
3. those who copy tactics made by other players, frequently taking them to extremes(they see a player using two charmies to help them level, they steal the idea and go charm twenty mobs to make levelling effortless)(abusers)
4. those who either grind or copy other peoples' tactics and use higher level players to help them(cheaters)
Unfortunately, numbers 3 and 4 are the most common, followed by #1, and most players can't tell the difference between #2, #3, and #4.
We seem to have four kinds of players, when it comes to levelling:
1. those who grind through levelling using the most simple, obvious means and call anyone who does anything else a cheater
2. those who devise and use their own tactics to level more effectively
3. those who copy tactics made by other players, frequently taking them to extremes(they see a player using two charmies to help them level, they steal the idea and go charm twenty mobs to make levelling effortless)(abusers)
4. those who either grind or copy other peoples' tactics and use higher level players to help them(cheaters)
Unfortunately, numbers 3 and 4 are the most common, followed by #1, and most players can't tell the difference between #2, #3, and #4.
