Economy Changes - Objects, Crafts and Gold {DRAFT, REV 2}

[Celeborn]

This is purely harmful to players, it accomplishes little, and it is not wanted by the people it supposedly benefits(us).

The binding change will affect only players, not immortals, who don't play(making the occasional void mage permadeath that never makes it high epic level doesn't count). Not only are we players the only ones who will be affected, and hurt, by this, we are the ones who actually play DL and have a good idea of how this will affect the game. You(Celeborn) programmed DL and know how you designed things to work, you may watch DL and see how things appear to work, but we *play* DL and know how things DO work. Making everything bind is not just a small, annoying change. It is a crippling one that will make DL a lot less fun, will makg a lot of people unhappy, and will waste a lot of time that we have already invested in the game. Many of the players you hurt with this patch will likely leave, and the rest of us(including me) who stay will be at the very least unhappy and quite possibly angry at you. Many alternatives have been suggested, I'm sure one of them will let you accomplish whatever goal you are after without causing such problems. Why do you insist on binding, and refuse to reconsider?

If you really want to your entitled to sprout your opinion, but this post doesn't actually contain any rational or insightful arguments to make me change my mind.

[Celeborn]

Yet a bound item can be sold to a shop? If not, then its value is effectively zero? If bound why would it sell to an npc if no one would buy it?

Bound items can be bound to a shop. NPC shopkeepers only pay up to 1 Mitrill (if I remember correctly) so you get /some/ return.

An item which is sufficiently priced will probably have components that are worth more than that that one Mitrill in salvage value, so NPC's have a valid return for their money.

You should ONLY be able to sell weapons to a weapon merchant, not any shopkeeper you find...

Realistic but not very practical in my opinion.

Binding like this will kill legends and artifacts. I for one have some weapons and armours I have had many owners and a lot of history. Years from now there will be no stories talking about a mighty weapon and how it changed hands. There won't be tales of swords like Vorpal, or Defender and the many characters that wielded them and the eventual loss of the items.

If you can provide me with the story of ten of those items (actual stories, not made up ones) I'll provide a limited amount of unbinding items in te he game.

Kindness to a newbie will be harder to come by. You can't just give them old gear you don't have a use for. You have to give them brand new gear. I hate to say it, but people aren't that generous.

There will be enough room for kindness to newbies. Common gear is easy to get, a silver coin worthless to a level 50 char buys a full newbie gear, and you simply cant use all the items you find as a char anyway.

[Isabelle]

It's important to note here Vogar, we have fully planned on changing equipment, especially for lower level characters so that NPC run shop equipment will be beneficial to all lower level characters, and will be more readily available to them.

Newbies will be fine, and will care less about some avatars sweaty old gear.

Costs will increase per level, to make it harder? no, to make it even, you will gain more coin from opponents per level. So it should theoretically balance out.

I think either you, or you and nuitari have asked on more than one occassion, 'why can't we have salvage' .. if the person who asked this would look, they would see, this is already planned, mentioned, designed.

You will /WANT/ to salvage your old eq for its properties, not because we are forcing you to, not because there isnt anything left for you to do with it (you can keep, or sell the item to a shop). You will /WANT/ to, because it will be preferred.

You won't be forced into anything.

[Vogar Eol]

We will want to salvage because something as simple as a name change via ridicule will destroy all our items' usefulness as anything but scrap

I am not against anything I have heard EXCEPT for binding. To me binding is like making your Kool-aid with Everclear. Sure, it looks like Koo-laid, heck it even tastes like Koolaid. However, it has a lot more kick then Kool-aid needs, and would you give it to small children?

Perment binding is a bad thing. My concept of timers was that if I removed a sword, it stayed bound to me for two weeks, and then it could become bound to the next person to wear it, ect.... I am not talking about bind once, then the binding purges completely after two weeks. I like to think of binding as dirt in the air, and the timer as a good ole rainstorm. It keeps things clean and healthy.

Celeborn, if you want me to write up some lore on ten items, that would be quite simple.

1. Sardonyx, current owner of a mitrill claw. Claw was forged by Vogar under the old magic, was carried in battle by Oogh the first voider in a tourney Isabelle held where one level 47 voider killed 9 tri-avs grouped against him.

2. Vorpal Blade, the first emeralite greatsword to ever be made. It had 17attack, and about 100 damage roll. It was given three Ser runes to increase wounding. This sword was wielded by Oogh, Fezzik and Trizona as well as several of his alliase in various arena competitions. In all cases the wielder won. The item was destroyed when Trizona then a void vampire lost his full corpse through blood-hunger.

3. Defender, the mate of Vorpal. Forged at the same time and under the same magic, this blade was instead given sanc and about 20 mobility. It changed hands as a loner, various times and eventually was destroyed when Autumn one of the last Half-Celestrials was fighting Lord of Mourning.

4 & 5. Twin emeralite talons made in the same magical furnace as Defender and Vorpal. One was gifted three Man runes, and the other gifted three Moo runes. Both were enchanted to about +12 attack and +50 damage. These changed hands many times in many arena battles and were a weapon of choice for speed. Drynath Syndicate felt their pain more often then not. Destroyed in a major shop crash.

6 & 7. Bracers of might, a match pair of ironwood bracers that give a large boost in strength and mobility. Have passed to many many trusted CoS members to use to level. Constructed by Autumn. Was used by Oogh in his tourney against 9 tri-avs.

8 & 9. Blue-handled and Black-handled iron longswords. One forged with anchient magic to make it cast Spiral Blast, the other with defensive magic of recall. Their powers were short lived, but they made their name while they lasted. The items still exist as very decent ordinary blades.

10. Vogar's silk shirt. Crafted by Rikku for Vogar and enchanted by Vogar. It was given some powerful enchantments, and loaned out to many. Gwen championed in her day wearing this garment.

11. Cuirass of Mystics, one of the best lowbie items still in existance. A simple ironwood cuirass which grants powerful aide to the wear's aim. Has been used by many of CoS at one time or another. Crafted by Autumn

12. Wood-beaded necklaces. Vogar origionally had saved 12 of these from days of old. They passed ammong the greatest of magic users in the game as they gave incredible boosts to INT and WIS as well as granting scry and other effects. They were worn by Darkwhispers, Dwain, and others who I have since forgotten. Destroyed when many other craft items of the old system were removed.

13. Vogar's Magic Visor. Was the only magic visor vogar made before the old craft code was changed. Eventually was gifted to Angelus and was worn from then till the death-traps that caused him to leave the game.

14. Dwarven Crown, was the last of the "King's Crown" from the old craft code. Was worn by Vogar for a long time. Finally was gifted to Darkwhispers in friendship. Died with many craft items of the old code.

15. A Midian cloaks that have changed hands a dozen and a half times and been reforged mitrill, finially becoming bound to one character in recent history.

16. Vogar's personal mitrill shortswords. Both were created using impossible to obtain ruins "Ead" and gifted with powerful enchant weapon, holy avenger, and mundane enchantments. Neither could ever be replaced and are likely the only true "Holy Avengers" in the game. They have been wielded by various Paladins of mitrill, but have passed back to Vogar's personal collection.

17. The first witchhunter. Shortly after some clues given by Celeborn, Cyrus and Vogar sat around in a dark nock of the old citadel of Vogar's Circle in the days before his guild. A multi-socket sparring sword was laying before them, and Cyrus had volunteered to sacrifice an ultra rune to the test. The runeword worked, and the weapon was tested in combat and used extensively. It was eventually loaned to a player (note should still be on the contract board) who lost it in one way or another.


And these are just a few items that I have had some involvement in. Any one of them I could write a decently sized story on. These don't even begin to delve into items such as the first Metaltearer. There are many stories out there of many items and how they changed hands and changed the world of Alora. Quite a few stories and interactions would not have happened had those items been bound.


But anyway, I have had enough. Fought the "good fight" for much to long. Its time I leave Alora for good to find the lands where other forgotten heros have gone before. May they welcome me in their midst.

[Celeborn]

We will want to salvage because something as simple as a name change via ridicule will destroy all our items' usefulness as anything but scrap

Rename converts all your worn gear to the new name. Also, items are linked to both char name and account name, so if any established player accidently gets renamed its easily fixed.

1. Sardonyx, current owner of a mitrill claw. Claw was forged by Vogar under the old magic, was carried in battle by Oogh the first voider in a tourney Isabelle held where one level 47 voider killed 9 tri-avs grouped against him.

2. Vorpal Blade, the first emeralite greatsword to ever be made. It had 17attack, and about 100 damage roll. It was given three Ser runes to increase wounding. This sword was wielded by Oogh, Fezzik and Trizona as well as several of his alliase in various arena competitions. In all cases the wielder won. The item was destroyed when Trizona then a void vampire lost his full corpse through blood-hunger.

3. Defender, the mate of Vorpal. Forged at the same time and under the same magic, this blade was instead given sanc and about 20 mobility. It changed hands as a loner, various times and eventually was destroyed when Autumn one of the last Half-Celestrials was fighting Lord of Mourning.

4 & 5. Twin emeralite talons made in the same magical furnace as Defender and Vorpal. One was gifted three Man runes, and the other gifted three Moo runes. Both were enchanted to about +12 attack and +50 damage. These changed hands many times in many arena battles and were a weapon of choice for speed. Drynath Syndicate felt their pain more often then not. Destroyed in a major shop crash.

6 & 7. Bracers of might, a match pair of ironwood bracers that give a large boost in strength and mobility. Have passed to many many trusted CoS members to use to level. Constructed by Autumn. Was used by Oogh in his tourney against 9 tri-avs.

8 & 9. Blue-handled and Black-handled iron longswords. One forged with anchient magic to make it cast Spiral Blast, the other with defensive magic of recall. Their powers were short lived, but they made their name while they lasted. The items still exist as very decent ordinary blades.

10. Vogar's silk shirt. Crafted by Rikku for Vogar and enchanted by Vogar. It was given some powerful enchantments, and loaned out to many. Gwen championed in her day wearing this garment.

11. Cuirass of Mystics, one of the best lowbie items still in existance. A simple ironwood cuirass which grants powerful aide to the wear's aim. Has been used by many of CoS at one time or another. Crafted by Autumn

12. Wood-beaded necklaces. Vogar origionally had saved 12 of these from days of old. They passed ammong the greatest of magic users in the game as they gave incredible boosts to INT and WIS as well as granting scry and other effects. They were worn by Darkwhispers, Dwain, and others who I have since forgotten. Destroyed when many other craft items of the old system were removed.

13. Vogar's Magic Visor. Was the only magic visor vogar made before the old craft code was changed. Eventually was gifted to Angelus and was worn from then till the death-traps that caused him to leave the game.

14. Dwarven Crown, was the last of the "King's Crown" from the old craft code. Was worn by Vogar for a long time. Finally was gifted to Darkwhispers in friendship. Died with many craft items of the old code.

15. A Midian cloaks that have changed hands a dozen and a half times and been reforged mitrill, finially becoming bound to one character in recent history.

16. Vogar's personal mitrill shortswords. Both were created using impossible to obtain ruins "Ead" and gifted with powerful enchant weapon, holy avenger, and mundane enchantments. Neither could ever be replaced and are likely the only true "Holy Avengers" in the game. They have been wielded by various Paladins of mitrill, but have passed back to Vogar's personal collection.

17. The first witchhunter. Shortly after some clues given by Celeborn, Cyrus and Vogar sat around in a dark nock of the old citadel of Vogar's Circle in the days before his guild. A multi-socket sparring sword was laying before them, and Cyrus had volunteered to sacrifice an ultra rune to the test. The runeword worked, and the weapon was tested in combat and used extensively. It was eventually loaned to a player (note should still be on the contract board) who lost it in one way or another.

Wheee! You convinced me. I'll implement something that'll suit this perfectly. I'll post more on it later.

But anyway, I have had enough. Fought the "good fight" for much to long. Its time I leave Alora for good to find the lands where other forgotten heros have gone before. May they welcome me in their midst.

It was fun mr. Dwarf!

[Nuitari]

You will /WANT/ to salvage your old eq for its properties, not because we are forcing you to, not because there isnt anything left for you to do with it (you can keep, or sell the item to a shop). You will /WANT/ to, because it will be preferred.

If we will /WANT/ to salvage our old eq, and will do it anyways, why make it bind to us? The only reason to do that is if we will NOT want to salvage it, binding would be unneccessary if we WANTED to salvage our eqipment.

You won't be forced into anything.

What exactly do you think binding does? FORCING a player to salvage everything, whether they want to or not, is exactly what binding does.

If you really want to your entitled to sprout your opinion, but this post doesn't actually contain any rational or insightful arguments to make me change my mind.

Of course it's not insightful; most of what I'm saying is self-evident. That link was not about me, either. I also do not presume to belong to any group described therein; I'm not quite foolish enough to try to judge myself or to assume that I am somehow noble or wise. I apologize if my opinion is annoying to you, but this is my only way of opposing a change that will directly and very negatively affect me. I am not trying to annoy you, keep you from changing DL(the rest of the patch looks awesome!), or anything like that; I am simply trying to keep all of the time I have invested in my character and equipment from being ruined, and to ensure that DL continues to be as fun as it is now and has been in the past(yes, the binding change is THAT bad). I am also not the only person to oppose this, and I have yet to see a single player support the idea of binding.

i realize you dont really read my posts here, but let me repeat, again..

I have read every post here, thank you. Please forgive me if I am not satisfied with the fact that losing my radiant items and wiping all 28,000 or so glory enchanted in my equipment "may not be possible".

I know, as you have stated to me, there is a deep philosophical reason for not having balance, balance is bad, the only real muds are the imbalanced ones, which give players a purpose and reason to overcome the obvious setbacks that are against them.

I am not opposed to balance, but you interpret the word very liberally. I was trying to help you realize that, without angering you and suddenly finding myself banned again for "harassment".


Is all-encompasing, permanent binding supposed to stay in the game forever, with no hope in sight, or is it a temporary measure to force players to get rid of items they have now and to stem the creation of new items? If the latter, then it's not really a problem and I have no objection to it. If it is the former, shouldn't we at least try out the rest of the economy changes, including salvaging, and see if they remedy the problem before *forcing* us to use them? That way, you can also tweak salvaging/selling to shops to find appropriate rates for them, to get players to salvage items at the rate you desire(if no one's salvaging, the returns are too low, if players are trying to mug each other for scrap items, it's too high). If you do this, there's nothing stopping binding from being introduced in the future, if neccessary. However, changes are almost never undone, no matter how bad they are, so once introduced it is irreversible. At the very least, doing this will accomplish your stated goal from the original post of "not driving away any established players" (or at least, not any more than this has already).



If you(Celeborn) still think I'm just being annoying and don't care what I think, I'll desist; I don't care enough anymore to argue any further than I have. I have some old emeralite artifacts that have been passed down to many characters, that I would like to remain unbinding, if possible. I'll leave their descriptions out of this post, as it's long enough already.

[Vogar Eol]

I still read here when I am bored, and I have finished chastising the ignorant people on my art-metal forums. (one knuckle-head actually thought you can't safely weld magnesium....)

Anyway, would like to hear that idea/concept you said you would post more info on, Celeborn.

[Vogar Eol]

Some other ideas I was thinking about in refrence to binding.

1. What if bindings worked such that anyone in the same family could use the items freely?

2. What if anyone could use a bound item, but suffered penalties for it? -1 critical modifier if in the same family; -2 critical modifier if not in the same family?

3. What if items are all unbound, put a new enchantment spell binds the item to next person to wield it? The item would be more powerful, and for rp purposes it would act the way it did because of a magical spell cast on the item.

4. No matter what form of binding remains in game, could we have some RP special effects added to wearing or trying to wear the items? Something that explains why it can't be worn by X, and that shows something neat when Y wear it?

A emeralite cuirass sparks and sputters as it fits itself to Y's exact form.

A emeralite cuirass zaps X, preventing him from wearing it.

I would still like to hear your idea, Celeborn.

[Isabelle]

an RP explanation might be like 'the object is magically crafted to the specific dimensions of the player when it is first worn, after it is worn, the magical properties dissipate, and can no longer fit someone else properly.
Without the proper fit of the item, all magical bonuses are nullified. (and the magic properties of form fitting can never be placed upon a previously bound item)


i understand the unwillingness to try something which is extreme, but if you start saying, well lets let it be worn by anyone of the same group, then players will just join and leave a guild at their whim, if you say you want a magical spell to unbind items, you might as well not have binding items in the first place, which means you will never truly know if the plan would have worked. You will be trapped in old never moving forward dark legacy, forever.

Now, your idea of 'family' may have merit, and if Celeborn does give in, and makes some form of weakened binding happen, the 'family' is what i would endorse. BUT ONLY as long as its not abusable. If marrying and divorcing to become part of a family starts happening just for the sake of selling an item to someone.. that would be depressing.

[Nuitari]

If marrying and divorcing to become part of a family starts happening just for the sake of selling an item to someone.. that would be depressing.

No, binding itself is depressing. If no one wants it, and players are willing to go to extreme measures like this to bypass it...why are you putting it in? Really, we don't secretly want binding and just pretend to oppose it. We don't just oppose radical change, we oppose BAD change.

[Vogar Eol]

I said FAMILIES not GUILDS, nowhere did I mentions guilds or groups other then familes.

Nowhere did I mention a spell to remove then binding of an item. I did however suggest that all items be unbound, but that powerful spells such as enchant weapon cause the item to be bound upon wear of the item.

Players marrying and divorcing? Since when do players have any real control over those two commands? Last I checked, Caretakers completely controlled that. If they a Caretaker isn't screening those actions propperly, don't blame players for abuse. I personally would require more money, and a very descriptive story. I would require 5 times as much cash, and a better story for a divorce.

In short, I think my post was grossly misread. Also, it was intended to be bounced off Celeborn, and not everyone out there.

[Isabelle]

my post wasnt directed at your one post, if you look closer, you will see 'your post about families' was mentioned specifically, the other comments i made were to address other peoples 'ideas'

as i said, i like the idea, as long as it cant turn into 'well ok fred, i will sell you my e300 full set of gear, so lets get a caretaker to marry us, then you get the gear, and we can divorce afterwards' or some such thing

unless you are asking specifically for loopholes, then ok, sorry for raising that concern

[Nuitari]

as i said, i like the idea, as long as it cant turn into 'well ok fred, i will sell you my e300 full set of gear, so lets get a caretaker to marry us, then you get the gear, and we can divorce afterwards' or some such thing

Fred: "So, why do we have to get married in order for me to buy your sword and armor?"

Seller: "Because I wore them."

Fred: "and...?"

Seller: "Err...didn't you know that once one person wears something no one else can ever wear it again? Where HAVE you been?"

Fred: "Uhh...Yes I can....*wears the armor* see?"

Seller: "OMG IMBA NERFPLZ!"

[weems]

I have been pondering this a while, thinking of things you could spend the money on, and this is what I have come up with:

60 Emeralite coins: Third eye. You have gained the wisdom of foresight, which you use to better dodge your attacks. Hard bonus of 13 to your upper mobility score. Can only be bought once.

20 Emeralite coins: Resets the enchants on any one crafted item. Doesn't change it's bind state. Increases its value by 50% (cumulative). So the more you do this to a single item, the more expensive it is to enchant.

85 Emeralite coins: Give an item an additional enchant slot. This can only be chosen once per item, and it increases the items value by 500% (making it more expensive to enchant).

15 White Shards: Never go above 'normal' appetite.

[Vogar Eol]

Reforging:
- Reforging is removed. Instead, people can use their crafts to perform 'Upgrade' and 'Salvage'.

Upgrading:
- Upgrading costs 400% of the items value in coins, and two times the normal crafting resources. (but not additional reagents).
- Materials are split into levels. You can only upgrade an item from its original material to a material one level higher (copper->bronze).

Salvaging:
- Depending on the item salvaged, may jields one (or more) of its original resource type.

So how will those that spent a lot of time addepting reforge be reimbursed? I personally feel a fair way would be to give a slight boost to their craft levels in their metalworking crafts. This would compensate for the time working metal that they spent.

How many levels? I think that should depend on their skill level in reforge. However, just removing the skill completely without covering the time and energy needed to addept wouldn't be very nice

[Arureal]

No More Reforge!!!
If reforging is to be removed, I am not sure if there is a fair way to reimburse players for the time and material used in raising this skill. Vogar Eol suggested that a raise in metalworking skills might be an option.
This may work for some players, but not for mine, unless a score of 200% in metalworking is ok.
Perhaps some resources as a form of reimbursement may work, but it would be very hard to determine an amount. Besides the time spent, I used a vast amount of mitrill to reforge eq from newbie to 50th level for my character to multi-class in, most of which will be near worthless with the coming patch when compared to the items that can be made.
So I do not see a fair way to reimburse players for this, although any form of reimbursement would be welcome, even if it does not fully represent the effort and materials used in raising this skill

[Quintos]

I do not believe that reforged items will be reverting to their original material. Vogar was addressing the fact that some people adepted the Expert>Reforge craft and are losing a craft. I do not believe that you will recieve any reimbursement for your reforged equipment.

[Arureal]

Quintos, you missed my point.

That will teach me to make a short post while online. sorry I was not clear on my post.

I did not think that reforged items would revert to the original material, nor was I thinking about reimbursement for items, that would be silly. Vogar was suggesting that players be reimbursed for the effort put into raising the skill itself. I was pointing out that there does not seem to be any fair method to reimburse players for the time and materials spent in raising this skill.

As for the items I reforged becoming worthless let me explain. For example the silver facewrap, even one reforged in mithrill would be a poor substitute for one crafted under the coming craft system, due to the number of enchantments the new one could hold. The only use the old reforged one will be good for is to get a blueprint and an enchantment from, and an ingot or 2 of mitril. I can get a blueprint and the enchantments from a normal item. The meager amount of mitril. I would get does not come close to the cost in mitril used to reforge it. So a great deal of the work I have done for the last year will be for naught.

I am not upset that this time was wasted, as the coming craft system looks awesome. I was just pointing out that it would be hard, if not impossible, to come up with a fair means to reimburse players for the time, effort, and materials spent in raising this skill.

Arureal

High Lord of Lowbies

[Vogar Eol]

Its very simple to reimburse people for the time spent. Simple math can tell us how many reforgings need to be done to go from 0% reforge to 100% addept.

Now lets say you did an estimated one thousand reforgings (yes, I know thats too high an estimate). Since in the new craft patch your craft skill will be given a level (100% will equal about e300 in the craft), Celeborn could do a little simple calculation to see what your level would be with another 1000 items made. That would be added to your craft level in smithing. Hence instead of being e300, you would now be e320 in smithing.

As you can see, you are being compensated for the time spent in the smithing skill. Why is this fair? Because in the new system reforge will be a PART of smithing.

[Arureal]

Vogar Eol

I did not have a clue as to how many tries it takes to raise a skill to 100%. I have never tried to calculate it, nor estimate it, so I will take your word that 1,000 is a high estimate.

I was also going to ask how current scores in crafting skills would be converted in the coming patch. If smithing can exceed the e300 that a current 100% is equal to, then your suggestion would be an appropriate way to reimburse players.

Arureal

High Lord of Lowbies

[Kiasyn]

moo

[Zidane]

just want to understand the issue here about reforge. From what i readed here i think its bug because if you reforge and have a low percentage the items that trying to be reforge should break its that simple. the gain of this skill (expert>reforge) using less material to reforge at a higher % and lesser breaks. (problem find)
The Reforging is like a at 100% when you start with 0%. no breaking item. And i noticed that its always using close to 250 to 300 ingots (no more, no less) just a bugging ideas

[Isabelle]

it uses ingots based on the objects 'size'

note: size does not have anything to do with ingame object sizes, but more to do with objects in relation to each other (like cuirasses versus gauntlets) and i believe the level of the item also plays a role.

[Quintos]

Crafted weapons and armors cost the same amount to reforge. This value does not change at all, like zidane noticed. This is a well known fact that I /know/ has been mentioned to immortals on multiple occasions, although I am unsure of their opinion. Although I have not personally tested crafted gauntlets, I would expect that they cost the same amount as the other weapons and armors that I have tried, which include helmets, cuirasses, and bracers.

[weems]

Crafted weapons and armors cost the same amount to reforge. This value does not change at all, like zidane noticed. This is a well known fact that I /know/ has been mentioned to immortals on multiple occasions, although I am unsure of their opinion. Although I have not personally tested crafted gauntlets, I would expect that they cost the same amount as the other weapons and armors that I have tried, which include helmets, cuirasses, and bracers.

Well, not quite true. They all CAP at 156 ingots, so in a way they cost the same...But if you get under that cap, thats when you see the variation.