NEW MINE CODE THREAD EXTRAVAGANZA!

weems · Post by **weems** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:36 pm

Vogar Eol wrote:That is NOT what I asked. I specifically asked how much you got from a wall of Obvious Chunks of Meteorite. Or have you not been able to find such a wall? I know I have only been able to find one myself. For all we know you might have only found a couple walls with trace ammounts, and thats it. I know you have been after gems quite a bit.

That was with one place of obvious chunks and a few minute traces.

Even if I DID pull tons more than you, I would still be against it, it's the second best metal, and it only takes 156 ingots for a reforge.

It should /not/ pour out of the ground, not even for an 83% meteorite miner.

Kiasyn · Post by **Kiasyn** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:37 pm

reforge = good
current mining ratios = bad

Vogar Eol · Post by **Vogar Eol** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:38 pm

Kill reforge fixes quite a bit of the problem. It puts jewelry, armor, and weapons all on par with each other. It also allows some mob gear to be much more special then other pieces by simple controlling its material.

Reforge has been broken for a long time anyway. The percentage of skill in it means nothing at all. 100% sharpeners can reforge using the same ammount of ingots as a 100% reforger.

Reforge is a skill that makes no logical sense, and it imbalances the game. I am 100% for its removal.

Kiasyn · Post by **Kiasyn** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:42 pm

so fix reforge.

weems · Post by **weems** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:43 pm

Kia Kia says:

Meteorite ingot has been discarded here. (168)
Meteorite ore has been discarded here. (168)

Kia Kia says:
thats what im up to
Kia Kia says:
i had 50 ingots from you
Kia Kia says:
when i started
Kia Kia says:
ive attained the ore by mining
Kia Kia says:
the ingots by buying
Kia Kia says:
very <censored> cheaply

weems says:
with what kind of miner did you mine the ore with?
Kia Kia says:
stone and ore
weems says:
how much of each?
Kia Kia says:
stone and mitrill
Kia Kia says:

Kia Kia says:
im not sure
Kia Kia says:
i mined about 50 to 70 ore with stone
Kia Kia says:
then the rest with ore

There you have it. What more do you need? Jesus. And the reforge skill works fine. Only problem is that it doesn't give benefits if you adept, but thats not really a big deal. It works.

If the mines were fixed, and hopefully Celeborn will stand by what he said on the first page, then Reforge wont even NEED to be removed.

Isabelle · Post by **Isabelle** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:43 pm

well, if you wanted balance, the proposal (if you can call it that - it looked more like sarcasm) of removing reforge, and keeping everything the way it is, would indeed help to rebalance the scales.

because really, who would care? you would spend the same amount of time, the only difference is that you wouldnt be able to overcharge an items enchantment with spells and enchants, then reforge it into a lesser enchantment item.

and i think ocardus was at one time asking for the removal of reforge himself, or at least mentioning that it was a source of abuse.

myself, i see the removal of reforge as a much better way to rebalance things, and keeping more resources coming in, would balance out the loss of reforge.
Player participation remains high, time involved in craft remains the same.

weems · Post by **weems** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:48 pm

Don't remove reforge. It would be silly to do so.

I see no reason why its encouraged that resources pour out of the mines.

Kiasyn · Post by **Kiasyn** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:51 pm

It's not balanced. You can still mine blue diamond and meteorite and make jewellery out of it. It would be balancing metal armor and weapons... MAYBE, but then jewellery would have an overflow.

weems · Post by **weems** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:54 pm

Oh, and removing reforge...

ANOTHER UNFAIR ADVANTAGE FOR OLDER PLAYERS.

*reforges a set of e400 metal eq to meteorite*

Wow, let's see the new guys duplicate THAT without reforge!....

DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM!?

Kiasyn · Post by **Kiasyn** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:55 pm

Vogar wrote:People are over estimating a possible surge in jewelry. Yes Alora will have more jewelry crafters. Why is that such a bad thing? How many people do you know that only wear the most commonly made pieces of jewelry? Thats because of the rarity and difficulty of making it under the old system. Under this new patch Citrine and Carnelian are more abundent then ever. The gold and silver needed for making jewelry from those gems is common too.

And with reforge gone this will be pointless. People will be walking around wearing bronze equipment.

Jewellery will be more common. Good eq will be less?!?

Isabelle · Post by **Isabelle** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:58 pm

why?

what about the aforementioned problem of using reforge to abuse enchanting?

i'm not seeing the hurt involved in doing it, if its just as easy to mine up mitrill as bronze was.

then you would still use bronze to increase your skill
and then use mitrill when someone asks for you to make them stuff.

don't get me wrong, i couldnt care less either way, but i'm looking at this, and i see both ways as working fairly, and one of those ways fixes an abuse bug.

unless you can think of a different method for fixing the problem.

You know, something i might like to see, and i've mentioned this before to a degree, patterns/blueprints, if you have patterns which require certain resources, and the higher your skill, the more higher quality resources you need to continue to increase your skill.

It's harder than what you have, but it makes /you/ the old miner, a better miner

(because new guys would 'require' mitrill and meteorite to attempt to match your skill)

But, this wouldnt happen, because it would be like taking a step back codewise, so, just my thoughts.

weems · Post by **weems** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:59 pm

The new people get hurt, that's who gets hurt.

How many ingots does it take to make an e400 piece of eq? 100K? 50K? 125K? Too many?

But since I merely started playing before them, I get it with 156...

Vogar Eol · Post by **Vogar Eol** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:00 am

I was not being sarcastic. I feel removing reforge adds to the game, and doesn't take away from much of it. If reforge is not removed, it atleast needs to be changed drastically. I do NOT feel it should completely change an items base material. Especially with a cost so low as 156 ingots.

Let say you spend 500,000 ingots of bronze or more to make a e500 exceptional item? You then take 156 ingots of a better material and reforge it. That is about 499,850 ingots of meteorite you did not need to use. Would you say its a bit too powerful of a skill? And a bit too easy of a skill to acquire?

By removing reforge, the material gain rate can remain more or less what it is now. Epic level exceptionals could also become tweaked to more realisticly obtainable levels, so we wouldn't all be in bronze while epicing. Lowbies would be happily mining and make cool lowbie gear, but wouldn't be making super powerful epic gear just as easily.

Yes, Isabelle. I propose either a drastic change in how reforge works, or its complete removal. I don't see the resources as the problem. Reforge is the problem.

Kiasyn · Post by **Kiasyn** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:00 am

And also if you remove reforge, vogar you will become pretty useless. Your 2k emeralite or whatever will be not worth much except for picks. unless you dupe it.

weems · Post by **weems** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:02 am

And the problem of abusing the enchant space could be solved just be making it so an item cannot be reforged more than once, or that it resets its enchant space. Either way it works...

Fixing the mining problem? Easy, Celeborn tones down the gains. A lot.

Kiasyn · Post by **Kiasyn** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:03 am

As weems has suggested before. The higher an epic level the more resources required to reforge it.

Isabelle · Post by **Isabelle** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:06 am

he doesnt become useless, his emeralite would continue to help him create high level equipment alot easier than someone using bronze or mitrill.

(the better the resource, the higher the chance of getting masterpiece)

But yes, i would agree with A) resetting the enchantment space after a reforge
and B) having reforge cost /way/ more than it currently does (its kind of a joke right now anyways)

I would be fine with those ideas

weems · Post by **weems** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:07 am

kiasyn wrote:As weems has suggested before. The higher an epic level the more resources required to reforge it.

Even that screws over new people too much for my liking.

So for my hypothetical four reforged e400 items, I currently need..624 ingots.

The formula I proposed was 2e + 156, where E was the epic level of the equipment.

So for somebody new, would take them 3824 ingots to reforge what I did for 624. And assuming the mining gains gets fixed, that wouldn't be very fair, now would it?

Shira · Post by **Shira** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:12 am

(nods towards Weems)

I have been mining on this new patch for two days now - yesterday 5, today for 6 hours and these are the resources I have gathered:

In this time frame - with a shale and gemstone(citrine/carnelian) miner, I have pulled up over 3k silver ore; over 500 gold ore, over 200 adamantite ore, over 4k copper ore, and over 400 different types of gems; numerous of which are obsidians, zircons and sapphires.

So what's wrong with this picture??

First off, as I stated, it was ALL done with two mining alts: Shale and citrine/carnelian.

Secondly..I am digging up more resources through a non- adepted miner than I was with my adepted miner under the old system!!!

So you are saying, that it is OKAY to mine up all those high quality gems on a citrine/carnelian miner? O.o You are saying, that it's OKAY to mine up that amt of ore on a STONE miner? I am not even USING my ore miner to mine up the ore. WHY? Because it's A WASTE OF TIME to switch alts. However, I DID switch to my ore miner just to see how much more I would get. And you know...I dug up 30 more copper ore...and 20 more silver ore per room. OOOOOOOOO.

Why have 6 alts going at the same time when you get MORE than enough resources using just 2? FRANKLY....I am looking at the amt of ore and gems I have gathered and thinking...Hell, in the next day I will have more than enough ore/gems to make another jewellery craft. And in another 2-3 days of mining...I will have enough to mine ANOTHER jewellery craft. WHHHEEEEE. NOT.

There have been reports from numerous who don't even mine PERIOD- those who have flocked to the mines in the last two days hearing rumors of the amt of resources being dug up. As Weems stated, we all are digging up TONS of resources.

There is NO point in adepting in any ONE particular mining skill because you get MORE than enough resources on any one particular miner. I now have enough admantite ore to reforge two items, and as I stated earlier - from a NON adepted ore miner. That makes me sick personally.

I honestly can't tell you how upset I am by the fact that sapphire miners are mining up diamonds. I paid a hell of a lot of money for the diamonds that I have gathered...NOT to mention the amt of time spent in epics HOPING that the one chest I lockpick HAS one. And now there are people mining them up the moment they come across them.

TALK WITH PEOPLE VOGAR. Even those who are greedy enough to take advantage of the system are even saying that the mines are way too easy. You however, seem to be the exception.

Vogar Eol · Post by **Vogar Eol** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:19 am

I am for the complete removal of reforge as we know it now. It should NOT change the items matrial. Change it into a salvage skill that allows you to pull gems out of jewelry (up to one gem and a couple ingots), and remelt metal items (up to the same number of ingots as are required to make the item). On a failed try at 'reforge' you would destroy all the materials.

This would help to compensate for needing the same raw materials as you wanted a finished item to be. You could reforge your normal items, and used any gained materials to try again at making exceptions.

Isabelles idea about material 'quality' affecting the success rate is a good one. That would also help to balance the ammount of materials needed to create an item. It also makes a lot more sense then how things currently are.

Kiasyn, are you accusing me of Duping emeralite? Anyone with any sense knows my emeralite supply has only gone down over time. All you have to do is Cast Locate Emeralite to see how much I have in the bank. Yes I realize I have the most to lose from reforge being removed. Why then are you whining instead of me?

weems · Post by **weems** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:21 am

Vogar Eol wrote:I am for the complete removal of reforge as we know it now. It should NOT change the items matrial. Change it into a salvage skill that allows you to pull gems out of jewelry (up to one gem and a couple ingots), and remelt metal items (up to the same number of ingots as are required to make the item). On a failed try at 'reforge' you would destroy all the materials.

This would help to compensate for needing the same raw materials as you wanted a finished item to be. You could reforge your normal items, and used any gained materials to try again at making exceptions.

Isabelles idea about material 'quality' affecting the success rate is a good one. That would also help to balance the ammount of materials needed to create an item. It also makes a lot more sense then how things currently are.

Kiasyn, are you accusing me of Duping emeralite? Anyone with any sense knows my emeralite supply has only gone down over time. All you have to do is Cast Locate Emeralite to see how much I have in the bank. Yes I realize I have the most to lose from reforge being removed. Why then are you whining instead of me?

It amuses me that accusing people of 'whining' is the only defense you have against logic.

Screwing over newbies = Bad.
Making it so resources DONT pour out of the mines = Good.

Amora · Post by **Amora** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:22 am

Umm, I am still pretty new to this whole thing.. and actually do not have a miner tho was levelling up a dwarf so I could head into the mines as soon as she could wear a ring of blue steel..

I've been reading and listening to all that everyone is saying... and it makes me wonder about alot of different things...

Its nice that the mines have changed.. that people who may not have had the chance to have something nice may now have that chance if they learn how to make it...

I do understand that perhaps there is too much being mined.. that perhaps.. there could be less found.. but.. I believe in the end there will always be something even better.. something else that can be found.. and perhaps played with...

I like the idea of lowbies having a chance... even someone like me.. stuck in the middle not sure of what to do.. with ideas of crafting etc.. but not sure how to get started.. yes.. having the new mining patch in.. makes me want to do it more.. :(but alas I wil not as I hate to die..)

in the end.. its really only a game... and yes.. there will always be people better then others.. people who try to gain that extra advantage.. and people just barely getting by and those.. just drifting.. and waiting to get to the end.. We have to remember the fun... not forgetting this..
)

Game on..

Shira · Post by **Shira** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:23 am

Okay, so now we are talking of increasing the amt of it takes for reforging an item OR removing reforge PERIOD. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

WE ONLY NEED TO FIX THE MINING PROBLEM....WHY CREATE MORE PROBLEMS WHEN ALL WE NED TO DO IS FIX THE ONE STARING YOU RIGHT IN THE FACE.

Okay.....brb....I need to go hit the wall, because my computer looks too tempting right now.

Vogar Eol · Post by **Vogar Eol** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:24 am

Shira, I am not saying that the gain rate between Primary, Specialism, and Mastery don't need tweaking. What I am saying is that all anyone is doing is judging the NEW system off the old one.

It is not the old system. It is the new system. It needs to be judged based on its own merit, not on the a system of merit where the old system is considered 'perfect'. Changes should be made according to whats needed, and not on whats needed to make it like the Old system.

Do any of you EVER think out of the box?

Isabelle · Post by **Isabelle** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:28 am

First, ocardus, you are talking about an e400 "new" person, that person isnt new, even if they are created 1 month from now, and level up to e400, they are still not new

so, (using 'your' formula) would 3800 mitrill for a reforge be a bad price to pay for an e400 exceptional helm?
it sounds like this helm would be pretty kick ass, and 3800 mitrill would
be a high, but probably a worthwhile price to pay for such a thing. and using todays chances of finding mitrill - that might take what, a couple weeks for one person?

- using post fix figures, it will likely be longer, unless you put extra players into the picture, then it becomes a few days.

Next, shira --

aside from ok, yes, too much resources, why is the 'thought' of having 1 or two characters to cover what originally took you 8, bad?

its good, isnt it?

if it had always been that way, and we changed it suddenly to have you requiring the 8 characters to mine, would people complain that it was unfair?

why is greater player participation in the mud bad?

sure, old school players are now not as elite as before, now they are like even with new players as well, is that bad?