Economy Changes - crafters take a peek please! {Revision 2}

Post by **Celeborn** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 12:19 pm

Arureal wrote:A few questions about the new blueprint system.

First, What about items for which there is no current crafting slot? For example, belts, a very common item yet there is not a crafting slot for items worn on the waist, or the face for that matter. How do we determine skill level in crafting these items?

I am expanding all crafts to accomodate all possible recipies.

Arureal wrote:Second, Let us say you have the blueprint for the sword Claymore level 6 but you are level 12, can you make a Claymore at level 12 or only at the level of the blueprint?

Since people can craft almost all NPC gear I was not planning on huge level deviances. (Do not want level 50 artifacts to suddenly be crafted towards level 25). There will be enough recipies to craft gear for anyone level 1 to level e5000. I am considering giving 'common' recipies a level range so all levels can be accomodated with crafted gear.

Post by **Celeborn** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 12:25 pm

weems wrote:So I ask again, hah...What determines the value of a crafted item in the new system, and how many enchants it gets, or what its rarity will it be?

Item class: level vs base enchantments and material. (and a whole bunch of other factors).
How many enchants: based on item class
Rarity (Meaning pop-chance?): item class
Value: Mainly item class, material, enchantments, item type.

weems · Post by **weems** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 12:47 pm

So basically...

The number of enchantments on the crafted item is determined by its material and level?

Gilgolad · Post by **Gilgolad** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:50 pm

Oh! Oh! i have a question now too! *bounces up and down in his seat with his hand up*

All this talk of blueprints means we'll all be getting a blueprint book right? Just like the songbook for bards and spellbooks for prism toteing people. So as a new character, before you can start crafting, you have to buy a blueprint book.

Also, based on the previous question and answer, we'll be getting a blue print for EVERY little deviation? Like one print for a level 1 sword, now a new print for the same sword only level 2, ect. Thats going to be a thick book when we're finished, not to mention complicated to find the print your looking to make. Or perhaps each craft, lets say swords again, one print does level 1-10, the next does 11-20, the next does 21-30? would consolidate things a little and still would be fair for the crafter AND would not put too many uber items out there.

And finally, when can we expect the patch anyway? A week? a month? Just so i know ahead of time.....

Post by **Celeborn** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:23 pm

weems wrote:So basically...

The number of enchantments on the crafted item is determined by its material and level?

No.

level, base enchantments and material. (and a whole bunch of other factors).

Post by **Celeborn** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:27 pm

Gilgolad wrote:Oh! Oh! i have a question now too! *bounces up and down in his seat with his hand up*

All this talk of blueprints means we'll all be getting a blueprint book right? Just like the songbook for bards and spellbooks for prism toteing people. So as a new character, before you can start crafting, you have to buy a blueprint book.

You get a blueprint book at creation.

Gilgolad wrote:Also, based on the previous question and answer, we'll be getting a blue print for EVERY little deviation? Like one print for a level 1 sword, now a new print for the same sword only level 2, ect. Thats going to be a thick book when we're finished, not to mention complicated to find the print your looking to make. Or perhaps each craft, lets say swords again, one print does level 1-10, the next does 11-20, the next does 21-30? would consolidate things a little and still would be fair for the crafter AND would not put too many uber items out there.

Uncommon and above will be fixed to a specific level, the objects crafting level, which I do not think is such a big problem.

Common items would be good if I would allow a crafting range on them, yes. If I allow deviation, it would give a blueprint a range, 10 different blueprints of the same object is just silly

And finally, when can we expect the patch anyway? A week? a month? Just so i know ahead of time.....

I will warn when the trial-week begins. I plan 'soon' but no definite dates yet.

weems · Post by **weems** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:32 pm

Celeborn wrote:
weems wrote:So basically...

The number of enchantments on the crafted item is determined by its material and level?
No.

level, base enchantments and material. (and a whole bunch of other factors).

What are these other factors, if I may inquire?

Arureal · Post by **Arureal** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:36 pm

I thought of a new question/suggestion

Should the Smithing craft be split into Jewelery and Smithing?

Celeborn said
â€œYou can only have ONE specialization and ONE mastery per craftâ€

weems · Post by **weems** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:42 pm

I disagree. A single account can already make /TONS/ of things. Interacting with people is part of the game, and I prefer a craft system that at least encourages a LITTLE of it.

I LIKE how smithing is crowded, as smithing is definetly the best overall crafting group. It means you have to be wise in choosing your crafts, because you cant just adept everything.

If crafts are divided anymore (which I am against), you might as well just make one character able to craft everything. Its already dangerously close to that on an account level.

Gilgolad · Post by **Gilgolad** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:15 am

I have an idea for a craft enhancement.

Since we have sockets in crafted equipment, why not make it possible to stick GEMS in there? DUH! I wonder why that was never alowed before. They can either add a couple hundred more E space or add an effect like a rune would, only on an equal or inferior scale.
Whaddaya think? Can't get that outta hand if the equipment only has 4 sockets maximum, and if the lesser gems don't add too much to the item. Only diamonds should really have a profound impact because they're relativly rare to begin with. Maybe even add a one gem limit per item.

Arureal · Post by **Arureal** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:17 am

Weems

I am glad you responded to my post, but I would like to hear more or different reasons why splitting jewelry and smithing is not a good idea.

As for â€œa single account can already make /TONS/ of thingsâ€

Isabelle · Post by **Isabelle** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:52 pm

player interaction is the main purpose, it's true for any mud, or mmorpg

however, that being said, there have been ideas tossed around that would merge crafts, like, if you are a blacksmith, you instantly have access to do anything which involves metal, be it mining, or making metal items.
and if you are a woodworker, you can chop wood, or make wooden items.

but, if such a system was in place, you would only be a 'woodworker' OR a 'blacksmith'

this is of course extreme, and will probably not be implemented in dark legacy to that degree

i think i've rambled a bit, so back to my original response, we don't want a player to be entirely self reliant, one problem with our system, is that players can place things in shops, and drop items on the ground to be picked up by their alternate characters, and this leads to the problem of players becoming recluse, and a breakdown of interaction.

The idea is for a player to play the game if they desire, and 'by themselves' theoretically become powerful. At the same time, they may also interact with other players, and become even stronger.

It leads to a friendly atmosphere, with a working synergy (the interaction of two or more forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects)

(this either a) promotes player interaction, or b) promotes making an alternate character to do the work. Note that we do not want option B to be the choice, and we hope that players use option A instead)

Arureal · Post by **Arureal** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:10 am

Isabelle
Very true, player interaction is the main purpose of any mud, mmorg, and even games like D&D.
Now I have played D&D for far more years than I have been a mudder. So I tend to think of player interaction as a number of things. Grouping, especially to defeat a powerful foe, is important. Guilds are another prime source of interaction. Even chance meetings that develop into friends have happened to me often in my time here, and as I RP, thatâ€™s most of them. But not near the number of friends my daughter has that does not role-play. DL even has a marriage and engagement system, cool. Although my daughter tends to freak out when I meet someone she is engaged to.

But then so have one or two of the guys I spoke with. Guess they never expected to meet her dad so soon!

I could go on, but I wonâ€™t, suffice to say that DL provides a lot of interactions for players, more than many out there.

For me, crafting will always be a part of my interaction with other players. I feel that player interaction can only be encouraged, never enforced. The long time I spent as a DM probably accounts for this view, but I have also seen muds that have had problems from trying to enforce interaction too much. DL has a great many ways for players to interact, none of them forced on players, and crafting should be the same. Crafting should encourage interaction, not enforce it. The problem is that often can be a fine line that is hard to see before the deed is done.

If some players are using alts to carry the craft workload, they must feel they need to for some reason.
Lack of interaction with other players who could fill their needs is the most likely reason. Perhaps they can not find a crafter who will do the work, or at a price they can afford, we donâ€™t know. How can we help if we donâ€™t know the problem? A larger and growing player base is one thing that would address many of these troubles by adding crafters and buyers. Allowing one player to craft a greater number and variety of items would also address many of these troubles. If the craft system were to attract players and keep them, that would be the best of both.

Well that is more than enough for one post.

Arureal

High Lord of Lowbies

Gilgolad · Post by **Gilgolad** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:31 am

Gilgolad wrote:I have an idea for a craft enhancement.

Since we have sockets in crafted equipment, why not make it possible to stick GEMS in there? DUH! I wonder why that was never alowed before. They can either add a couple hundred more E space or add an effect like a rune would, only on an equal or inferior scale.
Whaddaya think? Can't get that outta hand if the equipment only has 4 sockets maximum, and if the lesser gems don't add too much to the item. Only diamonds should really have a profound impact because they're relativly rare to begin with. Maybe even add a one gem limit per item.

Just so you don't forget my last post

Oh, and i agree whith whatever it was that you 2 were saying, i think player diversity crafty thingy should stay codependant with the square root of a trigonometral witch hunt.

Um, whatever....... i lost my train of thought.

Vogar Eol · Post by **Vogar Eol** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:48 am

Crafting in its current form has caused a lot of players to make "Crafting Alts". Basically they try addept the most needed craft items between their chars.

Why do they do this? For one of two reason for the most part. First major reason is they can't afford to buy items. 100,000gp for an item? Hah, I can spend a week or two and addept that craft myself! The other reason is to try and sell the items to others who don't wish to, or have the time for crafting.

Either of these two groups both feel they trully need to addept as many crafts as possible. The first group, so they don't have to buy to many items they need. The second group feels the more items they can make, the more sales they will make.

Another group are those people that feel they can become "Uber" only if they have special gear. These people a little more rare then the other groups. These are often people who both craft, and are also on "High Epic". They perfer to make this gear themselves, so that no one knows their "Secrets". They feel they must become the best at making as many items as possible. Why? So they can have the best items! Items equal power, crafts equal items, more crafts equal more power...

Now what will happen when the new changes come in? The first two groups will have a major dent in their desire to craft items.

Why? The people wishing to save money by crafting gear will need to spend money to craft. They can't just invest time anymore. So do they invest a million becoming great at making swords? Or do they buy the 10,000 sword they need?

Now the people wishing to sell items to others will definately experience a lot more sales due to the decline of the previous group. However, they will be spending money to make money. They will no longer be making money from nothing, and hence some people might not find the profits high enough. Who can say for sure?

Now the last group, the uber crafters, will likely always be around. They will just grumble about prices, grumble if someone learns to craft better then them, and grumble if a starsign choice allows a crafting advantage. Why? Because in their mind they must be BOTH the most powerful and the best at crafting. Hence they feel its unfair to make a choice between a powerful starsign, or one that gives a crafting advantage. In the end they will likely have two powerful epic chars (a caster, and a melee) and a bunch of crafting alts. Is that any real big change from now? No, but it lets them complain, which makes them happy.

Then there are the recreational crafters. People that pride themselves with crafting for the sake of crafting. I put myself in this group. These people like to make, and become known for making items. Its a part of their story and their character. Do these people really care if they can only craft one item type per character? Not really, atleast not as much as the previous groups.

ANYWAY.....

Thats the veiw of one really old crafter on the whole crafting world, as it exists in Alora today.

Arureal · Post by **Arureal** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:37 am

Vogar Eol, You are my favorite dwarf.

You explained many of the points this old elf was thinking, but my age-addled brain could not find the words for. My first character was not called the Absent-Minded Elf for nothing. Thanks for the help and the insight.

I like to think of myself as what you called a recreational crafter. Guess itâ€™s an RP thing.

But for right now I am going to go back over Celebornâ€™s posts on the new craft patch to get a better understanding of it before I post on this subject again. Got to keep that old elven brain ticking.

Arureal

High Lord of Lowbies

Isabelle · Post by **Isabelle** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:20 pm

there is one point that should be made, there /will/ be ingame equipment which will be an alternative to craft gear.

sure, the stats wont be exactly like a craft item, but they will be better than you find now, there will be more diverse items to be found/bought, and they will be more readily available.

Vogar Eol · Post by **Vogar Eol** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:02 pm

Well, the area items currently in the game aren't exactly bad right now. The main disadvantage is for melee characters. A melee char currently gets a greater boost from crafting then a caster.

Why? Because a casters effectiveness is mostly due to complexity, and skill of the player. Only things you need to do to raise complexity are to max Int and Wis, and level. You can easily max out Int and Wis with two craft items fairly early on. Then the caster can use all the great area items with their wonderful effects: Improved damage, longer duration, more experience, reduced mana, spell penetration, magic resistance, elemental resists.... etc...

Arureal · Post by **Arureal** » Tue May 03, 2005 4:25 pm

A problem with the upcoming craft conversion process.
Some players will have the scores for 1 mastery and 2 specializationâ€™s per craft.

I knew something was troubling me about the craft system in my last few posts, but I was having trouble putting my finger on it. I finally got it, what was bugging me my be a problem in the conversion of craft scores.

A couple of different scores were given on what a current score of 100% would convert into, so I did the math with all of them. Celeborn said that there will be allowed only 1 mastery and one specialization per craft, however not all scores will convert to this, some players scores will convert to a level where they have 2 specializationâ€™s, I happen to be one of them. In fact, it is possible to have a craft score convert into as many as 1 mastery and 3 specializationâ€™s, however the odds of someone having the narrow range of scores for this to happen is very small, so I donâ€™t think we will run into any of those cases.

Now I understand that for reasons of game balance the number of masteries should be limited to prevent a huge number of very powerful items in the world, and I do not think that allowing 2 specializationâ€™s in a craft will be a problem when it comes to this. Also allowing 2 specializations per craft is more realistic. It does not seem unreasonable for a master in a field to have 1 or 2 closely related items that they are specialized in.

This may also be of benefit to new players whom are just experimenting with the craft system. The friendlier the craft system is to new players, the better the odds they will stay, so long as it does not affect game balance adversely.

I do not think that having 2 specializations will adversely effect game balance. Not having 2 specializations will adversely affect players in my position, severely limiting the number and power of items compared to what they can craft now. The new system will already limit the power and level of items that can be crafted from the current system; more limits to this are not needed. My 100% in swords will not be equal to what I will be able to craft under the new system. Under the new system that 100% score will allow me to craft only up to epic 300 â€“ 350 level swords, yet under the current system I have made masterwork swords of epic 600 â€“ 650. I do not have a problem with this, as very powerful items should be limited, it is the lower levels of crafting that I am concerned with.
So instead of reading and posting, I guess I should be crafting and enchanting before my ability to make myself decent equipment is curtailed even farther.

Thatâ€™s all for now, let me know if I am mistaken in any of this analysis.

Arureal

High Lord of Lowbies

weems · Post by **weems** » Tue May 03, 2005 10:21 pm

Arureal wrote: Under the new system that 100% score will allow me to craft only up to epic 300 – 350 level swords, yet under the current system I have made masterwork swords of epic 600 – 650.

LOL!!!

Isabelle · Post by **Isabelle** » Tue May 03, 2005 11:27 pm

you have crafted epic level 600+ items?

how?

please inform me, as i don't seem to possess that ability.

Arureal · Post by **Arureal** » Wed May 04, 2005 6:09 am

Isabelle

I made them for a present to one of Catraâ€™s friends, I think it was Zidane, you can ask her to find out for sure who it was. They were epic level 614 at the time so I made it for their level. They freaked when I gave it to them, so I assume they still have it. Several players have said that it can not be done, I did not know that at the time, it took me almost 2 portals of ore to do it, and most of one night. I just assumed most players did not try long enough to get one, so I tried anyway.

Why, is that not supposed to happen? Perhaps it was a fluke, it was some time back, but you can check it out, like I said, I assume they still have it.

Arureal

High Lord of Lowbies

Kiasyn · Post by **Kiasyn** » Wed May 04, 2005 12:40 pm

Code: Select all

forge 5 8 2 ingot e614

Invalid Level.

Arureal · Post by **Arureal** » Wed May 04, 2005 6:45 pm

I wish I had never mentioned those blades, everyone latched onto that and ignored the rest of the post.

They were made about the time that Isabelle put that epic 1000 sword on the auction, then removed it.
I do not know if the code was disabled at the time, bug or what caused it. I do not craft epic level items most of the time, so I did not know I was not supposed to not be able to make it, and as much trouble as it was, I said I would never try again. Therefor I did not know that it says invalid level now. I can only judge by what has happened. It is not like there are any help files on the current craft system that tells you anything, and crafters sure donâ€™t help others to learn crafting.

If I had known it was not supposed to happen, I would have reported it.

But that was not the point of my post.

The point was on how craft score will convert. So tell me ye all knowing crafters, how are these scores going to convert, and will I still be able to craft all that I can now.

Salvaging............. 100.00% | Miscellaneous....... 25.16%
| Butchering.......... 5.98% | | Pet Collars....... 15.01%
| | Flesh............. 5.98% | | Backpacks......... 5.12%
| Skinning............ 93.51% | | Sheathe........... 5.03%
| | Skin.............. 27.43% Smithing.............. 100.00%
| | Scales............ 55.21% | Metal Weapons....... 100.00%
| | Fur............... 4.99% | | Swords............ 100.00%
| | Hides............. 5.88% | | Staves............ 0.02%
| De-Boning........... 0.52% Mining................ 100.00%
| | Bones............. 0.52% | Stone Mining........ 51.56%
Refining.............. 100.00% | | shalestone........ 17.26%
| Tanning/Weaving..... 96.52% | | limestone......... 31.44%
| | Skin.............. 41.53% | | granite........... 2.78%
| | Scales............ 55.00% | | sandstone......... 0.08%
| Smelting............ 3.60% | Ore Mining.......... 31.88%
| | bronze............ 3.60% | | mitrill........... 18.50%
Tailoring............. 93.71% | | meteorite......... 0.06%
| Clothing............ 93.71% | | adamantite........ 0.36%
| | Shirts............ 30.03% | | iron.............. 6.86%
| | Pants............. 3.67% | | gold.............. 0.78%
| | Robes............. 30.00% | | silver............ 2.46%
| | Cloaks............ 30.01% | | bronze............ 2.86%
Enchanting............ 81.17% | Gemstone Mining..... 16.66%
| Jewellery........... 30.38% | | citrine........... 5.35%
| | Templas........... 15.76% | | garnet............ 5.69%
| | Bindis............ 1.46% | | carnelian......... 4.56%
| | Earrings.......... 2.00% | | sapphire.......... 0.26%
| | Pet Collars....... 5.85% | | obsidian.......... 0.16%
| | Rings............. 2.84% | | topaz............. 0.56%
| | Necklaces......... 0.71% | | zircon............ 0.02%
| | Glasses........... 0.82% | | jade.............. 0.06%
| | Bracelets......... 0.55% Woodcutting........... 100.00%
| | Anklets........... 0.39% | Wood................ 100.00%
| Armors.............. 21.58% | | Jungle............ 20.10%
| | Cuirasses......... 20.19% | | Enchanted Woods... 64.80%
| | Shields........... 0.49% | | Temperate Forest.. 10.30%
| | Gauntlets......... 0.25% | | Dark Forest....... 4.80%
| | Boots............. 0.25% Woodcarving........... 100.00%
| | Helmets........... 0.20% | Weapons............. 68.47%
| | Greaves........... 0.20% | | Staves............ 30.01%
| Weapons............. 29.21% | | Bows.............. 30.02%
| | Swords............ 11.65% | | Clubs............. 8.44%
| | Axes.............. 2.12% | Miscellaneous....... 1.50%
| | Bows.............. 10.01% | | Fishing Tools..... 1.50%
| | Staves............ 2.08% | Armors.............. 30.03%
| | Talonous Arms..... 0.40% | | Shields........... 30.03%
| | Daggers........... 0.55% Foraging.............. 100.00%
| | Maces and Hammers. 0.85% | Plants and Flowers.. 100.00%
| | Spears............ 0.90% | | Cotton............ 100.00%
| | Exotic............ 0.65% Expert................ 84.29%
Leatherworking........ 48.60% | Enhancing........... 84.29%
| Leather Armor....... 23.44% | | Reforging......... 84.29%
| | Greaves........... 11.43% Fishing............... 23.78%
| | Bracers........... 2.07% | Fishing............. 15.31%
| | Boots............. 1.03% | | All Fish.......... 15.31%
| | Gauntlets......... 1.37% | Sea-Fishing......... 8.47%
| | Shields........... 3.09% | | Sea-Fish.......... 8.47%
| | Helmets........... 2.43%
| | Cuirasses......... 2.02%

Look at the scores, then multiply by 3.5 to too get the scores in the level based craft system.
You will see that a couple of my crafts will covert to 1 mastery and 2 specializations min score, as stated by Celeborn. This is the point I wanted to address.

The scores are scattered because I am just experimenting with crafts at this point, except for smithing.
If the new craft system discourages new players from experiment with crafting, it may also discourage them from the game.

We will soon have the third craft system since I started, before I can craft the equipment I want, it changes.
Mainly this is due to not getting to play often or for long periods, but it is still discouraging.

I would like to see the coming system to be well thought out to prevent the need for a number of changes after it comes in. I may not be right on my ideas, but at least I am trying to look at the new system, rather than just picking apart other posts without offering any relevant help on the subject.

Sorry for thing long post, but the short ones do not seem to work.

weems · Post by **weems** » Wed May 04, 2005 7:41 pm

(When I refer to an item of any level, assume I mean masterwork)

Okay, first of all, I am positive that you are remembering wrong. e314, or e414 would be my guess of what you actually made. Currently only a very small handful of items have been made above e400, by any player. The ones that have been were incredible luck or have taken vast quantities of resources.

Crafting above e500 has never been possible. Even if it HAD been, you still wouldn't have been able to do it. e400+ already takes hundreds of thousands of ingots to make consistently. With the current scaling, I can safely say that e614 would take MILLIONS of ingots. Literally. Thats not an exaggeration.

Celeborn is proposing a conversion where 100% translates into about e350, give or take tweaking on his end. That means that you will be able to CONSISTENTLY make, in one try, up to e350 items. I would consider that to be pretty fair, considering that under the current system making anything higher becomes iffy at best with anything but bronze or stone.

Also you have to remember that you will be able to /increase/ your craft skill. You can become better than e350. You can level up to e500 if you want.

You might argue that you are 100%, and shouldn't have to put any more time into learning because you already spent it, and maxed out. BUT, it doesn't work that way, because the conversion would make you a BETTER crafter than you are now. Can you consistently make e500 items? No, you can't. Sorry. I'm not even aware of any player made e500 items in existance. If there is one, it was stone or bronze, and took incredible luck. Its not something you can do over and over.

Its impossible to convert perfectly because of the simple fact that the systems work differently. Therefore the only thing Celeborn can do is try to get as close as he can. e350 is pretty much as close as you can get.

If you would like a free boost in crafting power, thats an entirely different issue, and I don't think thats what this patch is about. I'm already happy that hes making it, giving us the ability to become even better crafters than we already are.

Woot.

Dark Legacy MUD Forum

Economy Changes - crafters take a peek please! {Revision 2}

Re: A few thoughts