The problems of magic.

[weems]

People have realized that there is a huge power problem with elementals, they are WAY too strong. But in reality, the problem goes deeper than just the spell, its a problem with all of magic.

It roots from resists and MR. First we have to realize that there are SIX types of elemental damage, and then we have to remember that resists get more and more expensive the more you enchant on, and its a simple matter for a caster to merely change the damage type on their spells. So protecting yourself by getting resists is not viable.

Then there is MR. MR is another way to stop magic, but the problem with MR is that its near impossible to get it high enough to protect yourself for any decent amount of time...And if you DID get it high enough, it would be overpowered (HEHE, immune to magic!). Basically the only way to get a high MR is to be a Gnome (or be born under the Shield starsign in the future), and pump MR tons in epics, as well as having a good Psychic Armor spell. Sometimes even that isn't even enough, and you need Antimagic Shell as well, but that only lasts a matter of seconds.

So with MR, its impossible to balance against magic...Because you are either immune to it, or dead. There is no middle ground. Its broken.

I can't think of any easy solutions to this problem. Isabelle implied that something was in the works, but won't say anything. Don't know.

And this is only part of the problem, then theres the fact that magic doesn't need to be upgraded via equipment to function well. Physical combat users need to enchant damage roll, and attack roll, max their stats, and then can put whatever is left into defense.

Casters, on the other hand, only need to max their stats...Then they can put EVERYTHING else into defense, because magic doesn't need anything besides runes.

Bad bad bad bad

[Nuitari]

MR is not the only protection against magic. Resists help; you don't have to have the max resist to something for the resits to be helpful. There are other ways to defend against it, as well. Try experimenting instead of complaining.

[weems]

Did you even read the post?

[Nellwyn]

MR is another way to stop magic, but the problem with MR is that its near impossible to get it high enough to protect yourself for any decent amount of time...

I agree 100%. Antimagic fizzles and can't be recasted in battle. And sure, you can spend epic points to buy MR, but using an alarming amt of epic points. To have a descent amt of MR, pixie or gnome - as of right now, is the way to go. And I see now that you have stated that already.

And this is only part of the problem, then theres the fact that magic doesn't need to be upgraded via equipment to function well. Physical combat users need to enchant damage roll, and attack roll, max their stats, and then can put whatever is left into defense.

yep

Casters, on the other hand, only need to max their stats...Then they can put EVERYTHING else into defense, because magic doesn't need anything besides runes.

Well said

[weems]

Celeborn is already well aware of the problem with the balance of magic. He told me this back on the test port when he was tweaking MR etc. This post wasnt for his benefit, it was to generate discussion on the topic of this system which is, whether you (Nuitari) will admit it or not, broken.

Maybe through discussion some new ideas can come up.

Edit: And I'm not 'complaining'. I hate hearing that whenever I point out something thats imbalanced.

[Isabelle]

/begin sarcasm

It's your fault weems, you implied /change/

and regardless of your idea, it could be the best idea in the world, of utmost simplicity, and could instantly fix everything.. that means nothing, the thought of change was implied, and therefore your idea can not be considered

/end sarcasm towards those who resist change, of any form

[Isabelle]

Magic should.. be exactly like melee fighting

only..with magic

you have something more powerful than you, some form of damagereduction would be in effect possibly, just as if you were swinging a blade.
The differences would be in the power/damage of the spell, and the effects the spell causes.
Higher level creatures should automatically have a reduction in the amount of damage received from those spells which are cast from a caster which is a lower level than the target.

magic should all be split up into categories, allowing players/monsters to have resistances against them


they pretty much have their categories now, nature, physical, etc
just no real resistances to counteract them.

And we dont need a big complex thing, simply using a few basic spell damage types would be fine.

This isnt a new idea, it's been posted before by others, but we are now at the time and place where we can give it some serious thought.

[Navith]

defensive spells are also one of the deep roots of the problem, specificly speed spells.

[Jerardo]

It's hard to balance this as a whole... the game is multiclass. Nerf a class and everybody gets effect. The inbalance is especially regarding pvp and pvm. Pure magic users would get the upper hand on pvp if played with the right cards (ie all mob enchants, and a 'smart' player... I am not going to spoil tactics here.. but it deals with rendering MR), at the same time mages are less effective than the warrior on pvm. Warriors get to choose the damage with enchant space (avail but also limited by) and materials (ada, meteorite, -emeralite-). It's difficult to balance this.. are you trying to balance pvp or pvm between the class... both are completely different areas. The middle classes are hard to compare to because this is a multiclass game. I'm 'not' necessary suggesting this but the most effective way to balance this is to redo the combat/magic system, and/or take out multiclass; both are a urine bucket in the corner.

[lingolas]

i mostly agree with what weem says about magic

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So with MR, its impossible to balance against magic...Because you are either immune to it, or dead. There is no middle ground. Its broken. 

used to be true, but is this still really true after speed has been nerfed?


Also, i seriously dout that we will ever be able to balance melee vs. caster unless we get rid of the triclass system. I find the triclass system to be the root of all the imbalances. If we decide to get rid of the triclass system, we would be able to see the imbalances amoung classes and races much more clearly.

I vote for a single class

[Nuitari]

Celeborn is already well aware of the problem with the balance of magic. He told me this back on the test port when he was tweaking MR etc. This post wasnt for his benefit, it was to generate discussion on the topic of this system which is, whether you (Nuitari) will admit it or not, broken.

Maybe through discussion some new ideas can come up.

Edit: And I'm not 'complaining'. I hate hearing that whenever I point out something thats imbalanced.

Sorry for the harsh reply. Yes, there is some imbalance with magic, and you do make some valid points. However, MR is not as nearly as hard to get as it used to be; if you are a pixie or a gnome and have designed your character halfway decently, you shouldn't have much problem getting it. There are also other protections vs magic. If you aren't a pixie or a gnome, your problem is racial imbalance and you should wait for the race patch. As for resists, they ARE a viable means of protection. You don't have to have the max resistance to be protected from something; even having 30% resist is an effecitve 42% bonus to your hp and healing against that damage type. Combine this with saves and some universal damage reduction, and spells aren't nearly as effective against you. You can easily and cheaply fit two resistances on each piece of equipment you use, and this can be used to give you decent resistances to most damage types. Also, no character has access to all elements, they get a limited number, and you can see which ones they can use by "whois"ing them before you fight. Physical resists are also a problem, players tend to max their physical resists before even looking at elemental ones; I think enchanting of physical resists should not be allowed and instead players should derive some amount of physical resistances based on armor type(cuirass would have slash/blunt, leather slash, chainmail[if it's ever added] pierce/slash, etc)

While our magic system COULD be better, it does work and there are other things that could use fixing more urgently, not to mention the fact that any changes made to it have a good chance of being worse than the current magic system. A nice tweak might be to increase the range on MR piercing rolls and give a similar roll to the spell target(ie: the caster adds 1d100 - 50 to his complexity, target adds 1d100 - 50 to his MR). This would almost always give a CHANCE for spells to be resisted, depending on Complexity and MR, and very rarely a guaranteed hit or miss.

/begin sarcasm

It's your fault weems, you implied /change/

and regardless of your idea, it could be the best idea in the world, of utmost simplicity, and could instantly fix everything.. that means nothing, the thought of change was implied, and therefore your idea can not be considered

/end sarcasm towards those who resist change, of any form

Change is not always resisted. For example, look at my reply to Celeborn's proposed changes for the new patch. You complain about me opposing one part of it, and therefore opposing all change, when I actually supported a good 90% of it and only opposed one part, which was blatantly bad. Nearly every change you propose, Isabelle, is a negative one for players. That is why many of your ideas are opposed, not some irrational resistance to change. Try looking at proposed changes from a player's point of view before proposing them. It'd also help if you played DL more, and played it like most of us do: spend the long hours gaining epic levels, collecting cash or mining to get powerful and expensive equipment, and having the result of all that time and effort subject to the whims of new patches.

Magic should.. be exactly like melee fighting

No, it shouldn't. Magic is, and should be, very different from melee fighting. Choosing a warrior vs a mage shouldn't just be a choice of whether you want to type "cast breath" or "lunge". I'm sure that would be easier to balance, but ease of balance should not take priority over diversity and fun when planning game mechanics. If it's too hard to balance...ask for help. I'd be glad to help design or playtest any balance changes you want to make to the game, and I'm sure many other players would as well.

you have something more powerful than you, some form of damagereduction would be in effect possibly, just as if you were swinging a blade.
The differences would be in the power/damage of the spell, and the effects the spell causes.
Higher level creatures should automatically have a reduction in the amount of damage received from those spells which are cast from a caster which is a lower level than the target.

Universal damage reduction already affects magic damage. This is why a no-fec breath doesn't work on txachamitxchual or tez. This damage reduction is available to players(put fecs in inner peace, epicbuy dr, use a potion/wand that adds dr, use "the reed" starsign or choose orc or knight in next race patch). Universal dr + resistances + saves give good defense against damage spells. Just because players are too lazy to use these or experiment doesn't mean that they don't work.

magic should all be split up into categories, allowing players/monsters to have resistances against them


they pretty much have their categories now, nature, physical, etc
just no real resistances to counteract them

School-specific resistances would be very nice, just make sure they don't apply to your own spells.

defensive spells are also one of the deep roots of the problem, specificly speed spells.

No, they aren't. Speed spells themselves are not a problem, it is the Cie runes that allow you to cast infinite spells which create the problem. A super-fast caster that doesn't have unlimited mana is going to run out of mana very quickly, just how a warrior attacking quickly runs out of balance now. Being fast DOES give you an advantage, but, then, it's supposed to. The huge advantage from it now is because of free spells combine with the speed.

Also, i seriously dout that we will ever be able to balance melee vs. caster unless we get rid of the triclass system. I find the triclass system to be the root of all the imbalances. If we decide to get rid of the triclass system, we would be able to see the imbalances amoung classes and races much more clearly.

I vote for a single class

No. The triclass system in DL is by far my favorite class system on any Mud. It is diverse, allows for huge flexibility in character creation, and is very fun. This is one of the fundamental parts of DL that makes it great; one of those key features setting it apart from other muds. Don't mess with it.

[weems]

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Sorry for the harsh reply. Yes, there is some imbalance with magic, and you do make some valid points. However, MR is not as nearly as hard to get as it used to be; if you are a pixie or a gnome and have designed your character halfway decently, you shouldn't have much problem getting it. There are also other protections vs magic. If you aren't a pixie or a gnome, your problem is racial imbalance and you should wait for the race patch. As for resists, they ARE a viable means of protection. You don't have to have the max resistance to be protected from something; even having 30% resist is an effecitve 42% bonus to your hp and healing against that damage type. Combine this with saves and some universal damage reduction, and spells aren't nearly as effective against you. You can easily and cheaply fit two resistances on each piece of equipment you use, and this can be used to give you decent resistances to most damage types. Also, no character has access to all elements, they get a limited number, and you can see which ones they can use by "whois"ing them before you fight. Physical resists are also a problem, players tend to max their physical resists before even looking at elemental ones; I think enchanting of physical resists should not be allowed and instead players should derive some amount of physical resistances based on armor type(cuirass would have slash/blunt, leather slash, chainmail[if it's ever added] pierce/slash, etc)

You don't have to design your character halfway decent to protect yourself from melee. All you need is resists. And only 50 or 60% resist to a physical attack? You need maxed if you want to survive more than a multistrike by anybody decent. And furthermore, I am completely against the whole 'design your character' thing anyway. It is COMPLETLY counterproductive to the game as a whole. I HATE 'builds'.

You should be able to have a character, and continue playing it and getting stronger. You shouldn't need to make an entire new character because some patch came and changed everything. If thats happening, you know theres too much power in races and classes by themselves. But whether or not I agree with it, it IS happening. And by the way, any decent caster will have access to 3 elements, maybe more. Resists might help you a little bit, but they won't win you the fight unless you have the damage under control, especially with crap like arrow, they can snipe you out while retreating...And if you DO manage to catch up. Whoops, they have 90% physical resistance.

I hold by my stance, elemental resists are NOT viable, except for casters.

[Nuitari]

You don't have to design your character halfway decent to protect yourself from melee. All you need is resists. And only 50 or 60% resist to a physical attack? You need maxed if you want to survive more than a multistrike by anybody decent. And furthermore, I am completely against the whole 'design your character' thing anyway. It is COMPLETLY counterproductive to the game as a whole. I HATE 'builds'.

You should be able to have a character, and continue playing it and getting stronger. You shouldn't need to make an entire new character because some patch came and changed everything. If thats happening, you know theres too much power in races and classes by themselves. But whether or not I agree with it, it IS happening. And by the way, any decent caster will have access to 3 elements, maybe more. Resists might help you a little bit, but they won't win you the fight unless you have the damage under control, especially with crap like arrow, they can snipe you out while retreating...And if you DO manage to catch up. Whoops, they have 90% physical resistance.

I hold by my stance, elemental resists are NOT viable, except for casters.

1. I didn't say only get 50% resistance to physical attacks.
2. Yes, the fact that you only have to get resistance to 3 damage types for phyical and a lot for magic IS a problem; I believe that physical resists should not be enchantable, but instead should come in limited amounts derived from armor. This would help alleviate the problem of players only taking 5% damage from physical attacks, and give them another 270% resist to spread out among elements.
3. This isn't about "builds", it's about what you put on your equipment. You don't have to design your character to have saves, resists, or dr; you get the first two on your equipment and the third is only partially affected by your "build". Any character can get dr, saves, and resistances; they don't favor any specific class or race.
4 This has nothing to do with making a new character every time a patch comes out.

[weems]

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3. This isn't about "builds", it's about what you put on your equipment. You don't have to design your character to have saves, resists, or dr; you get the first two on your equipment and the third is only partially affected by your "build". Any character can get dr, saves, and resistances; they don't favor any specific class or race.

MR

[Nuitari]

What about MR? Any character can get decent MR.

My main character is a pixie Juggernaut who is all but immune to magic, even that cast by higher level pixie spellcasters.

I have an e14 Pixie shaman who has no problem resisting spells from most casters; except those who are far higher level than him, which is how it should be.

I have a low elevel grugach, who gets no innate MR or complexity bonus and is not a psionicist or a cleric, and who has no ultra runes or unique equipment whatsover yet still resists most spells from all but the highest level casters.


All of these characters funtion in combat; they are not "built" around resisting spells. Anyone can accomplish the same thing, regardless of "build"

[weems]

Hahahaha. For how long? 30 seconds?

[Nuitari]

In the case of the Grugach, 20 seconds. I'd have to say that 20 seconds of near-immunity to magic, with the ability to recast it as soon as it wears off, is pretty good. Combine that with other forms of protection against magic and you have a solid defense against it.

Cele has done a pretty good job of balancing magic; it's not perfect, but it certainly doesn't deserve to be whined about.

[weems]

In the case of the Grugach, 20 seconds. I'd have to say that 20 seconds of near-immunity to magic, with the ability to recast it as soon as it wears off, is pretty good. Combine that with other forms of protection against magic and you have a solid defense against it.

Cele has done a pretty good job of balancing magic; it's not perfect, but it certainly doesn't deserve to be whined about.

Again with the 'whine'...or wait, last time you used the word 'complaining'. Its NOT balanced, and its nowhere near perfect. And I'm not complaining for pointing it out.

And you reached exactly the same point that I did. Scroll up to the first post I made in the this thread.

"So with MR, its impossible to balance against magic...Because you are either immune to it, or dead. There is no middle ground. Its broken."

And there you have it. Temporary immunity is not a balance.

[Nuitari]

In the case of the Grugach, 20 seconds. I'd have to say that 20 seconds of near-immunity to magic, with the ability to recast it as soon as it wears off, is pretty good. Combine that with other forms of protection against magic and you have a solid defense against it.

Cele has done a pretty good job of balancing magic; it's not perfect, but it certainly doesn't deserve to be whined about.

Again with the 'whine'...or wait, last time you used the word 'complaining'. Its NOT balanced, and its nowhere near perfect. And I'm not complaining for pointing it out.

And you reached exactly the same point that I did. Scroll up to the first post I made in the this thread.

"So with MR, its impossible to balance against magic...Because you are either immune to it, or dead. There is no middle ground. Its broken."

And there you have it. Temporary immunity is not a balance.

No, I did not reach the same point you did. Except Torrim, none of my characters are immune to magic, and none of them are guaranteed dead versus it either. You insist that it's not balanced, but do you see casters dominating fighters at every turn? Do you see fighters dominating casters at every turn? I've been beating just about everyone with both a caster(cecil) and a fighter(Torrim).

[Vogar Eol]

The main problem is lack of creativity. A creative warrior will beat a stagnant caster. A creative caster will beat a stagnant warrior. Find weakness, and exploit it. Do the unexpected. Do stuff so stupid it actually works.

[Nuitari]

Why bother being creative, Vogar? Just whine a lot on the forums about how imbalanced it is, and force the creative players to tell you how to do things; it's a lot easier.

[weems]

I will point out imbalances and support changes fixing said imbalance, regardless of whether or not it personally benefits me.

No, I did not reach the same point you did. Except Torrim, none of my characters are immune to magic, and none of them are guaranteed dead versus it either. You insist that it's not balanced, but do you see casters dominating fighters at every turn? Do you see fighters dominating casters at every turn? I've been beating just about everyone with both a caster(cecil) and a fighter(Torrim).

This is what I see:

I see a system where magic users do not need anything but runes and maxed stats to function correctly offensivly, and physical damage users needing runes (for buffs), maxed stats, and tons of enchant space into damage roll and AR. So basically, casters have a huge defensive advantage, as well as dealing elemental damages which are hard to resist against. I am not counting tricks here, both sides have many weird tricks they can use to help them, so that aspect gets factored out.

I know you see a problem with resists, or you wouldn't have put the new thread up. But its far from the only problem. This isn't a complaint against casters being 'too strong' or fighters being 'too strong'. I have no personal problems with either. I have a problem with how the system works. If you call this complaining, scroll up, read again, and continue to do so until the words sink in.

[Vogar Eol]

I agree, Nuitari... That seems to be the way of things:

I don't understand how to defeat uber_combo so uber_combo is invincible.

However, one thing I strongly dislike about Antimagic shell is just how it works. It allows you to get by without spending epic on MR. Granted, only for a short time. You are however as completely immune as anyone else with the same MR.

Personally I don't think Antimagic shell should work as a complete pierce barrier. I think it should work closer to a DnD system, absorbing "spell levels"

Antimagic 300c 12:00
You get hit by a 75c arrow spell, your antimagic shell absorbs the energy
Antimagic 225c 11:47
You get hit by a 125c breath spell, antimagic absorbs it.
Antimagic 100c 11:33
You get hit by a 75c cone of enegery, antimagic absorbs it
Antimagic 25c 11:27
You get hit by a 125c breath spell, destroying you antimagic shell! *pierce*
You are hit by a wall of flame.
Antimagic 000c 10:00


You shield is depleted, but still existant. No way to actually take and recast it in combat unless you dispel first. Dispel in combat? Yes you could. Would you really want to though?

[Nuitari]

:roll:

I will point out imbalances and support changes fixing said imbalance, regardless of whether or not it personally benefits me.

No, I did not reach the same point you did. Except Torrim, none of my characters are immune to magic, and none of them are guaranteed dead versus it either. You insist that it's not balanced, but do you see casters dominating fighters at every turn? Do you see fighters dominating casters at every turn? I've been beating just about everyone with both a caster(cecil) and a fighter(Torrim).

This is what I see:

I see a system where magic users do not need anything but runes and maxed stats to function correctly offensivly, and physical damage users needing runes (for buffs), maxed stats, and tons of enchant space into damage roll and AR. So basically, casters have a huge defensive advantage, as well as dealing elemental damages which are hard to resist against. I am not counting tricks here, both sides have many weird tricks they can use to help them, so that aspect gets factored out.

I know you see a problem with resists, or you wouldn't have put the new thread up. But its far from the only problem. This isn't a complaint against casters being 'too strong' or fighters being 'too strong'. I have no personal problems with either. I have a problem with how the system works. If you call this complaining, scroll up, read again, and continue to do so until the words sink in.

Yes, resists are currently imbalanced, and I proposed a way to fix them.

Casters do not only require maxed stats. A caster with only maxed stats + armor class + resists(which I believe is what you are referring to) will only be able to rely on self-sufficient spells, will not be able to keep antimagic shell up for very long, and will have very low hp. This makes for a caster who can spam damage and healing spells, and not much else. With no mana enchanted, they'll probably have about 1700 at low epic levels(say, below 50), so most of their mana will be used up to keep buffs on; they won't get much anitmagic shell time, and they won't be able to use many spells without cie runes. They will also have low hp, which combined with their low MR makes them easy pickings for magic, while also leaving them very weak against elementals and certain other attack forms.

While it is true that casters' main offensive capabilities require less enchantment space than warriors', the tradeoff for that is that the warrior can enchant as much offensive capability as he wants, within the limits of his available enchantment space. The fact that a warrior gets two weapons gives him a good deal of bonus enchantment space to contribute towards his offensive capabilities. The caster, on the other hand, is severely handicapped by using weapons and thus loses out of a good deal of enchantment space.

[weems]

Last time I checked, hp was defensive. Everybody needs hp. Factors out.

And both physical users AND casters need mana for buffs, so that part factors out.

That leaves mana for offensive spells. Going around in epics, your offensive spells WILL have cie in them, or you will run out of mana regardless of how much you have.

One weapon is what, 30 or 40k at most? Not much when looking at all your other equipment, especially when you count that you need MUCH MORE as a fighter to function.