Paladins
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Re: Paladins
I think the Paladins should get spin because they are just like warriors cept they can do magic
"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. "
Mahatma Gandhi
Mahatma Gandhi
This is how i see it....i have made many paladins and they are good, not too strong and not too magically inclined.
Most aspects seem to be balanced with them, they have heal but again not to the proportion of the cleric. And the adepting of given weapons in my opinion is set at a good point 80%swords etc. This makes sure that the paladin isn't as strong as the warrior, and well giving spin to a pally would just render warriors pointless except for bash and some additional damage.
Most aspects seem to be balanced with them, they have heal but again not to the proportion of the cleric. And the adepting of given weapons in my opinion is set at a good point 80%swords etc. This makes sure that the paladin isn't as strong as the warrior, and well giving spin to a pally would just render warriors pointless except for bash and some additional damage.
Jhereko of Surion Blackraven
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lingolas
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no spin to paladins!!!
they are already so much better compared to other classses
+ vigilance = AR bonus
+ healing = full heal every 3 hrs
+ 80% Sword = decent compared to all other classes
+ undead = a huge bonus that only clerics and paladins have
+ holy avenger = + speed and damage
+ magic/melee = nice to be able to fight and cast
- ?
therefore no spin for them!!!
Rangers stole a warrior's tracking skill, lets not let paladins steal a warrior's spinning skill.
they are already so much better compared to other classses
+ vigilance = AR bonus
+ healing = full heal every 3 hrs
+ 80% Sword = decent compared to all other classes
+ undead = a huge bonus that only clerics and paladins have
+ holy avenger = + speed and damage
+ magic/melee = nice to be able to fight and cast
- ?
therefore no spin for them!!!
Rangers stole a warrior's tracking skill, lets not let paladins steal a warrior's spinning skill.
fix inner peace, it has been broken since near the end of the overcharging days.
oh and lingo:
-lay on hands is not a full heal, it actually sucks
-turn undead sucks(and I think the paladin version is even worse than the cleric version), only works on undead lower level than you....you do the math for epics
Paladin is, in my view, a supporting class for a warrior. They shouldn't get spin, leave it to the REAL warriors.
oh and lingo:
-lay on hands is not a full heal, it actually sucks
-turn undead sucks(and I think the paladin version is even worse than the cleric version), only works on undead lower level than you....you do the math for epics
Paladin is, in my view, a supporting class for a warrior. They shouldn't get spin, leave it to the REAL warriors.
Guns don't kill people; I do!
There should be something done about their magic ability:
They have dual-wield, which means that a crowned Paladin/Mage/Psioncist will have better complexities than a crowned Cleric/Mage/Psioncist thru the use of two 'of the Adepts.' It's lame that seemingly the best set of classes for Magic [the three magic classes] aren't the best set of classes.
What's more is they get the air rune, which combined with the breath prism gives you 'bash breath'. This gives the Paladin arguably the best breath in the game.
Also, since it is a Paladin it has decent fighting skills:
Hybrid (Mainly Melee) 3x80% 2x70% 60% Ranger, Paladin
Hybrid (Mainly Magic) 2x60% 2x50% 25% Psionicist, Bard, Cleric
As you can see, this is a very large advantage over Clerics. All, in all, the Paladin [mainly a melee class] makes the best first class for a magic user while still allowing for decent fighting if the magic user should need to go melee for whatever reason.
They have dual-wield, which means that a crowned Paladin/Mage/Psioncist will have better complexities than a crowned Cleric/Mage/Psioncist thru the use of two 'of the Adepts.' It's lame that seemingly the best set of classes for Magic [the three magic classes] aren't the best set of classes.
What's more is they get the air rune, which combined with the breath prism gives you 'bash breath'. This gives the Paladin arguably the best breath in the game.
Also, since it is a Paladin it has decent fighting skills:
Hybrid (Mainly Melee) 3x80% 2x70% 60% Ranger, Paladin
Hybrid (Mainly Magic) 2x60% 2x50% 25% Psionicist, Bard, Cleric
As you can see, this is a very large advantage over Clerics. All, in all, the Paladin [mainly a melee class] makes the best first class for a magic user while still allowing for decent fighting if the magic user should need to go melee for whatever reason.
Those who know others are wise;
those who know themselves are enlightened.
Those who overcome others are powerful;
those who overcome themselves are strong.
~Tao Te Ching
those who know themselves are enlightened.
Those who overcome others are powerful;
those who overcome themselves are strong.
~Tao Te Ching
Aiutau, the problems you mentioned are not problems with paladins, rather the entire magic system.
The magic system needs to be fixed, not paladins, and thus the fact that paladins making very good offensive magic users when combined with mage etc is a moot point, because if/when magic is fixed, you would have to tweak paladins back to the way they were.
The magic system needs to be fixed, not paladins, and thus the fact that paladins making very good offensive magic users when combined with mage etc is a moot point, because if/when magic is fixed, you would have to tweak paladins back to the way they were.
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lingolas
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i have to agree with weem.
After viewing the magic system for more than a year now i conclude that the magic system is the source of all if not most imbalances. A pixie advantages are amplified because of the persisting magic system.
what would be a better magic system? anyone got any idea for a new magic system?
After viewing the magic system for more than a year now i conclude that the magic system is the source of all if not most imbalances. A pixie advantages are amplified because of the persisting magic system.
what would be a better magic system? anyone got any idea for a new magic system?
Re: ling
Who said it needed replacing? Nobody, as far as I can tell, but there are certain issues with it that need addressing, and go far deeper than mere mana cost. And its not that magic is too good, but rather the exact opposite. There seems to be an astounding amount of older players who think that magic is simply awesome, and thats that. Well, news flash:Isabelle wrote:the magic system does not need to be replaced, the source of the problems lies with the 'no mana cost spells' and the ability to combine that with instantaneous runes.
MAGIC SUCKS ON ITS OWN
Yes, thats right. If you use just magic (IE an oracle mage/psion/cleric), you will eternally SUCK.
Issue being: Your potential for magic is forever determined at level 1/1/1, AND YOU NEVER GET ANY BETTER AT IT AFTER YOU CROWN.
If you have surps, staves of the adept, and a crowned pixie...Your comlpexities will never imrprove.
As opposed to a regular weapon user, who can enchant damage roll and attack roll onto their equipment, and get better and better forever.
Actually, the entire REASON why magic abilities are so sought after is because they are EASY to get, they require no effort, its a burst of power just added onto whatever you already had, so magic is either really really good (when its combined with regular weapons), or really really crappy (when you try to use it on its own).
So if magic was something you had to work for, rather than just something you INHERITED from your race and class, it would completly kill all these rune complaints, and maybe make a pure caster actually a viable choice. Also, it would help make 'builds' a less popular thing to do, since magical power would be based on the effort you put in. And another thing, it would make magic less useful for weapon users, which I also agree with.
Re: ling
When will people learn that it is pretty much impossible to have a Cie AND a Bee in 1 spell? IMPOSSIBLE... so there are no manaless instant spells anymore, celeborn took care of that when he reduced speedIsabelle wrote:the magic system does not need to be replaced, the source of the problems lies with the 'no mana cost spells' and the ability to combine that with instantaneous runes.
Kiasyn Kelle
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Isabelle
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uhm weems..
ok weems, your message said nobody was saying the magic system needed to be replaced, try reading the message i replied to -
from lingolas
and i quote
-snip
what would be a better magic system? anyone got any idea for a new magic system?
-snip
thats what i replied to, and i stick with my answer.
from lingolas
and i quote
-snip
what would be a better magic system? anyone got any idea for a new magic system?
-snip
thats what i replied to, and i stick with my answer.
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Isabelle
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..
-summary for kiasyn-
i believe it was when weems said the problem lies with the magic system, and then lingolas said it needed to be replaced, and then when i said no it didnt, then it was an arguement about whether i am correct or not.
P.S. the magic system doesnt need to be replaced
tweaked, sure - i have no arguement with that
i believe it was when weems said the problem lies with the magic system, and then lingolas said it needed to be replaced, and then when i said no it didnt, then it was an arguement about whether i am correct or not.
P.S. the magic system doesnt need to be replaced
tweaked, sure - i have no arguement with that
Re: ..
Isabelle wrote:-summary for kiasyn-
i believe it was when weems said the problem lies with the magic system, and then lingolas said it needed to be replaced, and then when i said no it didnt, then it was an arguement about whether i am correct or not.
P.S. the magic system doesnt need to be replaced
tweaked, sure - i have no arguement with that
If you take a wooden boat, and slowly, over the course of decades, remove planks and put in newer ones as repairs...And eventually every single piece and part of the boat has been changed..Question: Has the boat been replaced, or tweaked? And what difference does it make, really? Changes are changes. Arguing about semantics is silly, and gets ideas nowhere. Instead of focussing on the wording used, you could look at what people actually MEAN.
Summary of thread for people too lazy to read:
1. Spin is proposed as an ability for Paladins.
2. Spin for Paladins is rebuked because Paladins are deemed to be plenty strong enough without it.
3. People bring up the fact that magically, Paladins kick lots of arse.
4. Arguements ensue on whether or not Paladins need to change, or the magic system, semantics, and random spam gets tossed in for good measure.
How do Paladins kick ass magically?
They get divine as a secondary skill, body and defensive as teritery skills, and the rest of their complexes are utter crap.
Divine = Bless, Vigilance(Inner Peace still doesn't work properly and warmonger is only useful in splatting contests or for gnomes who don't yet have enough glory to get medium size)
They get 80% in swords/axes(useless if you have fighter, rogue, or ranger) 90% in all armor types(useless if you have fighter), mounted charge(useless), lay on hands(sorry to say it, but it's useless), holy avenger(a moo rune,a few thousand enchant space, and crits on undead, useless if you have mage), vigilance(maybe 10 more speed than other casters get from vigilance) and bless(a few thousand enchant sapce more than other classes get from bless). If Inner Peace worked, it would make Paladin a good supporting class for warriors, but unfortunately it doesn't.
A single-class Paladin would be very good compared to other single class characters...but this isn't a single-class game. Paladin isn't effective in conjunction with warrior(thanks to inner peace not working and their armor/weapon skills not stacking), and it can't effecitvely replace warrior, unlike some people think(19% less in sword/axes, 9% less in all armor types, no equilibrium, no headbutt, no bash, no spin). So, it is a class that isn't useful in conjuction with other fighting classes(warrior, rogue) and can't compare to them in terms of fighting power, in a game where physical combat is the only real way to fight(thanks to AMS, Gnomes, and complexities being effectively capped at relatively low levels). Of course, if Inner Peace is ever fixed, Paladins will be very powerful, perhaps becoming even as useful as warrior, rogue, or cleric.
If you're wondering why my current character has Paladin as a class(and in conjunction with warrior, no less), it is because this character was designed in an earlier patch where balance was all-important, and I didn't realize that they had messed up Inner Peace since I last used it heavily.
They get divine as a secondary skill, body and defensive as teritery skills, and the rest of their complexes are utter crap.
Divine = Bless, Vigilance(Inner Peace still doesn't work properly and warmonger is only useful in splatting contests or for gnomes who don't yet have enough glory to get medium size)
They get 80% in swords/axes(useless if you have fighter, rogue, or ranger) 90% in all armor types(useless if you have fighter), mounted charge(useless), lay on hands(sorry to say it, but it's useless), holy avenger(a moo rune,a few thousand enchant space, and crits on undead, useless if you have mage), vigilance(maybe 10 more speed than other casters get from vigilance) and bless(a few thousand enchant sapce more than other classes get from bless). If Inner Peace worked, it would make Paladin a good supporting class for warriors, but unfortunately it doesn't.
A single-class Paladin would be very good compared to other single class characters...but this isn't a single-class game. Paladin isn't effective in conjunction with warrior(thanks to inner peace not working and their armor/weapon skills not stacking), and it can't effecitvely replace warrior, unlike some people think(19% less in sword/axes, 9% less in all armor types, no equilibrium, no headbutt, no bash, no spin). So, it is a class that isn't useful in conjuction with other fighting classes(warrior, rogue) and can't compare to them in terms of fighting power, in a game where physical combat is the only real way to fight(thanks to AMS, Gnomes, and complexities being effectively capped at relatively low levels). Of course, if Inner Peace is ever fixed, Paladins will be very powerful, perhaps becoming even as useful as warrior, rogue, or cleric.
If you're wondering why my current character has Paladin as a class(and in conjunction with warrior, no less), it is because this character was designed in an earlier patch where balance was all-important, and I didn't realize that they had messed up Inner Peace since I last used it heavily.
Guns don't kill people; I do!
Look at my last post. Paladins + Dual Wielded 'of the Adepts' + Magic classes = teh pwn mage. Granted, Mages suck; but why should Paladins, a FIGHTER class, make the best mages.Nuitari wrote:How do Paladins kick ass magically?
You said that 'of the Adepts' are useless outside of enchanting and sigils, and I think this is a wholly incorrect statement. It's not good to use offensive magic because it sucks, granted.
But couldn't you sheathe your standard weapons and draw the staves when Haste, for example, runs out? Then you could have extra complexity on your Haste spell. This allows you to have it last longer or be more powerful. That's a pretty useful thing. People use triggers to stay spelled up already; just put an extra three commands into your trigger... it wont hurt.
Those who know others are wise;
those who know themselves are enlightened.
Those who overcome others are powerful;
those who overcome themselves are strong.
~Tao Te Ching
those who know themselves are enlightened.
Those who overcome others are powerful;
those who overcome themselves are strong.
~Tao Te Ching
that's the power of triggers, not paladins. by your logic, bards, warriors, rangers, rogues and any other class that gets dual-wield or has a way of temporarily boosting complexities is overpowered. dual wield isn't unique to paladins, and it doesn't make sense that characters with dual wield get higher complexities, but that isn't a problem with paladins. A cleric/fighter can cast the same haste as a cleric/paladin, a mage/fighter gets the same haste as a mage/paladin
Guns don't kill people; I do!