Rogues

Kariyana · Post by **Kariyana** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:58 pm

Post all possible changes you would like to see to this class. Also, list current pros, cons and strongest attributes. Enjoy

Zidane · Post by **Zidane** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:00 pm

i think rogue should have more skills then a warrior because warrior are powerover with the spin skill, like in epic ,you have a high epicer spin maybe 2-3 times and get a low warrior to spin once and all the exp from spider,dragon,etc. make them a powerful to any classes

weems · Post by **weems** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:09 pm

zidane wrote:i think rogue should have more skills then a warrior because warrior are powerover with the spin skill, like in epic ,you have a high epicer spin maybe 2-3 times and get a low warrior to spin once and all the exp from spider,dragon,etc. make them a powerful to any classes

Lockpick, Disarm, and Multistrike is plenty.

Vogar Eol · Post by **Vogar Eol** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:49 am

Spin is only a decent skill when fighting lots of enemies at once, a situation dangerous to be in BUT in which a warrior would be used to. Warriors are melee professionals. Rogues are not.

We don't write about epic battles where the line of a thousand elven rogues met and held against tens of thousands of angry orc rogues. Warriors fight mass battles, and should have the skills need to fight and hold there own in such a melee.

Rogues are loners, perfering stealth to a "meet the enemy head on" type of approach. They sneak around undetected, and pick the enemies off one by one without alerting the others in the area.

Multistrike is a perfect attack for single combat. It allows four tries at a critical hit on one targeted location, or four tries on four different locations. What does that mean? Two multistrikes and there can be a massive pile of limbs and a huge pool of blood. The rogue has basically cut the enemy to ribbons in a furry of slashes.

Is Multistrike better then Spin in a huge melee? No. Should rogues be as good as warriors in a huge melee? No. Warriors have their strong points, and rogues have theirs. A warrior can't sneak around and loot whole dungeon levels without fighting a single mob, now can he?

Vogar Eol · Post by **Vogar Eol** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:52 am

Also, Spin can only be used once ALREADY in combat. Multistrike can be used to start combat from the shadows while your enemy is looking the other way. That is a distinct advantage over spin. A rogue can have four limbs severed before the enemy has a clue what is happening.

Just thought I should mention that too.

Kiasyn · Post by **Kiasyn** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:14 am

make backstab decent

Vogar Eol · Post by **Vogar Eol** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:07 pm

Circle is decent, and is only a backstab used in combat. Its like a lunge, only more powerful. I haven't used backstab lately, but have used and found circle to be decent. Hence I would assume backstab is decent too.

Hint: Up your damage roll.

Kiasyn · Post by **Kiasyn** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:49 am

i have 750 damroll....

lingolas · Post by **lingolas** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:06 am

multistrike is specific, you can aim at a body part and strike. Spin on the other hand is more general, you can't aim.

rogues are already good they do not need any more bonuses.

Warriors on the other hand have lost alot of bonuses over the years. I dont know if anyone notice this but stun is virtually useless now.

Also, how does damage roll work? Does it go by % of the mob that you battle against? I tend to do alot of damage to some mobs and barely any to others.
for example, i do lots of damage to Tyr guards and barely any to a tyr child.
My damage roll is 1000+ but i do not notice any significant damage increase compared to when i had 600 damage roll. weird?

Kiasyn · Post by **Kiasyn** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:15 am

actually you can aim... but because spinning is more wild the chances of hitting where you aimed are off a bit

Zidane · Post by **Zidane** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:48 am

about spin skill: spin spider head , all the head are flying and you may have a second hit in if you miss the first hit

Quintos · Post by **Quintos** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:30 am

Rathnor, that idea seems to function more like the skill 'circle' should be functioning. Just pointing that out.

Jorelani · Post by **Jorelani** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:36 am

If you make it constant, right after you've begun battle, you shouldn't be able to sneak... it's pretty obvious where you are. Hide and sneak should only be temporary.

I also argue that sneak and hide be somewhat limited to the environment. Wilderness at night, you're very effective, whereas in the city square during daytime you'd have a harder time being effective.

lingolas · Post by **lingolas** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:32 pm

jor writes

Code: Select all

I also argue that sneak and hide be somewhat limited to the environment. Wilderness at night, you're very effective, whereas in the city square during daytime you'd have a harder time being effective.

I agree and disagree.

it is true that it is very hard to hide when there are so many people, but when you're a rogue, you should also be a master in crowded places. I suggest that rogues have the ability to disguise.

good luck finding the rogue in a croweded townsquare

since we are on the same topic, i just want to comment on the hide/sneak skill. It sucks!!! I really see no need to hide and sneak. EVERYONE can detect you even if they are sleeping next to their keyboards. This is just wrong!

Here's my solution:
once someone hides, everyone gets the message "someone went somewhere." everyone would have to cast 'detect hidden, or thought sense" to reveal the persont that's hidding. If a rogue were to hide from an adjacent room and then sneak into your room, there is absolutely nothing you can do to find out if that person is in your room. The only way to find out is if you randomly cast thought sense or detect hidden. Once, the person that is hiding casts a spell, move, or speak, he/she is no longer in hiding.

This skill should be disabled in the worldmap and in structures that dont belong to you for structural security reason.

Kiasyn · Post by **Kiasyn** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:06 am

lingolas wrote:Here's my solution:
once someone hides, everyone gets the message "someone went somewhere." everyone would have to cast 'detect hidden, or thought sense" to reveal the persont that's hidding. If a rogue were to hide from an adjacent room and then sneak into your room, there is absolutely nothing you can do to find out if that person is in your room. The only way to find out is if you randomly cast thought sense or detect hidden. Once, the person that is hiding casts a spell, move, or speak, he/she is no longer in hiding.

Why can't you talk from the shadows? Just because they can hear you doesn't mean they can tell where you are. Casting a spell is the same. If you move maybe a slight chance of being able to telling where they are.

Jorelani · Post by **Jorelani** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:05 am

lingolas wrote:it is true that it is very hard to hide when there are so many people, but when you're a rogue, you should also be a master in crowded places. I suggest that rogues have the ability to disguise.

True. Perhaps provide special items, skills, spells to 'mark' or 'tag' the sneaking thief?

Zidane · Post by **Zidane** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:08 pm

can we please have Rogue skill "steal" only on mobs i been waitting for a long time now. before i forget, One skill like "punch" should be a warrior skill only (punch someone with the handle of the swords,axes,scythes or bare hands) i think "elbow" skill should be warrior/paladin and whoever is good at crossbows,bows (range weapons if close enough)
anything the skill "spot" Rogue should be able to have the highest percenage then others. They're are some classes that have low percentage and spot like it was 100% (please fix)
excuse the typo here

phalanxyrian · Post by **phalanxyrian** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:47 pm

the only dam problem about backstab is that evry one does have a 100% spot...
and all epic mobs doe see you while sneaking and being inviseble (yes ive tried)

Zidane · Post by **Zidane** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:15 pm

phalanxyrian wrote:the only dam problem about backstab is that evry one does have a 100% spot...
and all epic mobs doe see you while sneaking and being inviseble (yes ive tried)

just to add on the rogue issue not only 100% spot is out there but there a long lastest detect invis that can last all day. i know i had my detect invis with a trigger. Not that i need it when i pass level 30 just 5 dur runes (+4, +10) equals 20 complex can last all day for an example.

zidane wrote:just to for warriors sake punch and kick and elbow are for warrior's skills not rogue maybe we can fix this, because rogue are weaker then warrior so these skills are more fit for a warrior with a damage bonus. Rogue are skillful with a circle and backstab (great deadly move that need the skill hidden.

Bon · Post by **Bon** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:08 pm

i dont think we should have spoit i think if you want to find a hiden mobor person search should do teh trick because you are "searching for them" and in duels it makes being a rogue and having back stab pointless i mean yes circle is ok but why use circle when mojority of it will just be removed do to resistance just save the balance for jabs because if your a rogue you should be using daggers and the speed you get with daggers makes up for the damage over time with the speed in wich you hit them

just my opinion tho

Zidane · Post by **Zidane** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:22 pm

the skill Spot should have a percentage high only for rogues not for other classes. There are too many other classes with the skill spot the make rogue backstab pretty much useless, plus backstab and circle is like lunge celeborn head.

This skill "Spot" make it hard to backstab from a unique skills for Rogues that combines to backstab and sneak im not saying remove the skill from other classes but some of the other classes dont desire it and some have to be lower then 60% at least

and upgrade the code for Rogues backstab skill to hit harder then lunge, otherwise Rogues just have detrap skill ,which for the skillful rogue is an insult to the class.

zhequan100 · Post by **zhequan100** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 7:19 am

after i become a thief than i know that thief waste the most money such a waste of money

phalanxyrian · Post by **phalanxyrian** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:51 pm

Bon wrote:i dont think we should have spoit i think if you want to find a hiden mobor person search should do teh trick because you are "searching for them" and in duels it makes being a rogue and having back stab pointless i mean yes circle is ok but why use circle when mojority of it will just be removed do to resistance just save the balance for jabs because if your a rogue you should be using daggers and the speed you get with daggers makes up for the damage over time with the speed in wich you hit them just my opinion tho

totaly agreed with that, if all classes gain spot why would they get search?

Gnawer · Post by **Gnawer** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:25 pm

I am a new player and now on my third class I started out as rogue and can share my experience of it.

First I can say that enhanced damage doubles your damage about. Warriors, casters all did superior damage then me what did I get in return, lets take a look what defines this rogue class.

I expected shady gameplay, backstab, steal, sneak, trip and poison enemies.

Backstab - disabled, all you get is an attack with no delay, worse then thrust.
Hide - worked, but only in the academy...
Sneak - worked, in the academy...
Steal - disabled
Circle - Works
Pick Locks - No locks to picks, all was magically barred on the areas.
Disarm Traps - No traps to disarm, heard this is only used in epic, reason?
Poison Weapon - Still untested, but it looks promising
Headbutt - Oh I thought, neat ability a headbutt now thats street fighting rogue, too bad it maxes out at 60% and sucks, couldn't get a target unbalanced even.
Punch, Knee - Useless.. Waste of Balance

The only skill I found useful before I dual classed was circle(25), and dual wielding (40), enhanced damage (44)..

Theres a huge gap of gameplay for the rogue, basicly hes not a rogue, he does nothing similar to a rogue.

And you can't just ignore the 150 first levels, and say they are good in epics.

My suggestions are this:

Lower spot to 30% on warriors and all casters, let thieves, rangers have high spot and bard have medium.

Implant stealing to mobs, I know plenty of things i could steal, like !!! KEYS, to infilitrate areas.

Implant backstab, I dont know why this got disabled, but I dont see why it is or could be overpowered. Just have the mob become watchful after someone backstabbed him once, and are more likely to spot the attacker again.

Implant some useful street fighting tricks, like trip, dirt kick. Improve headbutt, knee ( TO THE GROIN!), punch skill % for rogues (I havn't tried it at high % but maybe it become useful..)

Anyway.. that was all i could think off, rogue has no strong point or the strong point is 'disarm' 'pick lock' for epic players?????

And now i'm off to the bard thread and complain, and moan and suggest

Malkor · Post by **Malkor** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:02 am

firstly, i agree with gnawer in this aspect: rogues do not gain many sneaky tactics that would be useful for roleplaying as a rogue. the gameplay style varies so slightly from warriors...but of course i have two strong rogues and dont want imms to change anything, because they love to nerf....-.-

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