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Dark Legacy MUD Forum • View topic - racial imbalances




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 Post subject: racial imbalances
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:10 am 
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Sure, it's impossible to have the races completly balanced, and they probably shouldnt be anyway. But the way things are now, it's EXTREME.

Humans: Suck, except MAYBE the clover starsign under certain circumstances.
Dwarves: Suck, except for a mining alt.
Elves: Suck.
Lizardmen: Suck.
Trolls: Suck.
Phasians: Suck.
Ogres: Suck.
Orcs: Suck.
Gerps: Suck.
Pixies: Kick lots of ass.
Gnomes: Kick even more ass.

Sure, you could say that any of the sucky races can be chosen for roleplay purposes...wait, what roleplay?

I spy a balance problem.

~Ocardus/Ridley


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:04 pm 
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This would help a lot more if you would add an analyses of why races are weak and what could be done to better them. :P

Wheeeeee,
Cellyyyyy


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 Post subject: Races
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:39 pm 
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ummm just to add some insight or as far as i knowness.....Elves are pretty well balanced they dont suck at all...they have strong enough complexities and are strong enough physically....they need no tweeking

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:53 pm 
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I agree with Jhereko, elves are actually configured quite nicely at the moment.

However I will agree with Weems on the Phasian issue. They do suck. Runewalking is cool, but they have absolutely no other advantages, or disadvantages over other races. I would imagine that the smurf people with magical runes in their heads would have other magical capabilities aside from runewalking without a pillar. Perhaps the ability to set a pillar somewhere temporarily for like 5 minutes and be able to rw back to it. Or some complexities bonus. Or stat bonuses/penalties.

Phasians are just so... neutral. If I would have known all about it, I never would have made a phasian character. I would have just made another elf. or a gnome.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:02 pm 
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I'd have to say that I generally agree, though the gap has been narrowed slightly since the breath - balance thing was put in. But still, pixies really have an advantage over the other classes in that they can use the same eq as everyone else, there's no noticeable health difference between an ogre and a pixie of the same level. Pixies have +'s and no -'s. Pro's but no con's. And they have some pretty nice pro's too. Compared to orcs? I mean come on... 25% magic complexity plus some MR to boot with no disadvantages and orcs get a rage just before dead, and don't take extra damage for fighting in agg and berserk styles, but also lose some complexity unless I'm mistaken, not very good pro's and a disadvantage. True pixies SHOULD be better at magic than other classes, but they shouldn't be just as good at melee as the others.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:19 pm 
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You got me there, celly. I'll try to be more in-depth this time around.

Humans starsigns
Void: Useless, completly. Cannot be affected by magic? OUCH! Magic-Resistance is just so much better in every way.
Avatar: Ick. Maybe if you liked to change your deity all the time to make different types of sigils? Hmmm...
Tower: Perhaps if you REALLY liked to explore and can't live without the extra 2 spaces you see on the map. The mobility bonus is barely noticable.
Furnace: 4 complexity? Not bad, until you remember that pixies and gnomes get more, with less of a penalty.
Unicorn: Half mana is actually pretty useful...But 25% more damage recieved?! OUCH!
Clover: Quite possibly the only useful starsign. 2 luck, 25% more gold, 10% more treasure, is all useful bonuses.
Waterfall: Interesting, but doesnt really have a practical use.
Cyclone: Same as waterfall.
Landslide: Same as waterfall.
Sun: Same as waterfall.
Moon: Another weird one. But the bonuses are useless, as per usual.
Fist: 2 AR and 10 damroll. Thats what, a few thousand enchant space? No thanks.
Guardian Spirit: Two luck and half exp losses from fleeing/dying/supplicating corpses...Who would design their character around the idea of having less penalties for FAILURE? This starsign makes no sense.
Comet: Speed is fun =). But it's nothing a good caster cant summon up at will, enhanced by being a Gnome or a Pixie.
Shadow: Eh, why not just cast invisibility? Or wear a warp cloak?
Hospic: Decent in theory for a pure fighter, but since magic is just so incredibly powerful for buffing up, nobody really bothers with a pure figher. And when they do, they choose a more apt race like Troll.
Shield: This is one of the worse ones. It's like a Gnome except worse in EVERY way.
Reed: Useless bonuses on the long term.
Beauty: Hmmm...><

Troll: -25% complexity is DEVESTATING. Magic is just too strong to turn down like that. And from what I can see, their normal/limb regen isn't good or fast enough to be useful.

Dwarf: Prospecting in the mines is just about it for these guys.

Phasian: I suppose being able to runewalk from anywhere is a nice utility effect...But seriously...><

Orc: Feral rage? A burst of power before death to save your ass...Good in theory, but in practice, you just die.

Gerp: 60% slash resist innate is actually pretty decent! Thats a good amount that can't be severed off, might be usefull in pvp...But with the way things are now, pretty useless.

Lizardmen: Aquabreath. Wow. NEXT!

Ogre: Some mediocre complexity bonuses...Blargh.

Elf: Better complexity bonuses, but still not on par with the top two.

Pixie: A massive complexity bonus, innate fly, and kinshape (quite useful if you are creative) make this one of the most popular power races, and with good reason.

Gnome: A more advanced version of pixie. Requires a bit of work to get onto the 'normal' scale (getting up to medium or large size), and a little bit less complexity. But with 1 MR per level until 50, and then the ability to buy another 20 with only 10 or so epiclevels...It's basically the magical strength of a Pixie, and the magical immunity of a voider, but only for spells that you wouldnt want cast on you anyway. The best. Identifying items on sight is just icing on the cake.

Thats it for now. I'll get started on my ideas on how to balance the races.


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 Post subject: yah i know it's long!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:52 am 
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Some correction and comments for Weemster's post.


PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:19 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
You got me there, celly. I'll try to be more in-depth this time around.

Humans starsigns
Void: Useless, completly. Cannot be affected by magic? OUCH! Magic-Resistance is just so much better in every way.
[penalty for voids are just too great. There is absolutely no good reason for playing them.]
Avatar: Ick. Maybe if you liked to change your deity all the time to make different types of sigils? Hmmm...
[i dont know what this one does, but I'm sure it's unimportant, otherwise i would know]
Tower: Perhaps if you REALLY liked to explore and can't live without the extra 2 spaces you see on the map. The mobility bonus is barely noticable.
[another useless bonus. Someone must be out of their mind if they pick this one]
Furnace: 4 complexity? Not bad, until you remember that pixies and gnomes get more, with less of a penalty.
[an extra 4 complexity will allow you to add one more fec at max. WOW!!!!]
Unicorn: Half mana is actually pretty useful...But 25% more damage recieved?! OUCH!
[not sure about this one, 25% more damage may not be so bad if you have your resistances up. but like what he said, it's still bad tradeoff]
Clover: Quite possibly the only useful starsign. 2 luck, 25% more gold, 10% more treasure, is all useful bonuses.
[Not a bad bonus]
Waterfall: Interesting, but doesnt really have a practical use.
[only good if can find someone with -water resitance. UNtil you can find a mob or someone who has that penalty, your skill is pretty much useless]
Cyclone: Same as waterfall.
[same]
Landslide: Same as waterfall.
[same]
Sun: Same as waterfall.
[same]
Moon: Another weird one. But the bonuses are useless, as per usual.[never played moon]
Fist: 2 AR and 10 damroll. Thats what, a few thousand enchant space? No thanks.[7500 enchantment space at most. not bad, but at high level, 7500 enchantment space is nothing. besides, AR can be gain by set body. And 10 damage roll is barely noticeable in combat]
Guardian Spirit: Two luck and half exp losses from fleeing/dying/supplicating corpses...Who would design their character around the idea of having less penalties for FAILURE? This starsign makes no sense.
[not a bad one, by the time i reach e500 i've lost around 10-15 levels of exp. This bonus is simply giving you a couple of free levels.]
Comet: Speed is fun =). But it's nothing a good caster cant summon up at will, enhanced by being a Gnome or a Pixie.[same as what he said. if you're going for speed then this race is a bad idea]
Shadow: Eh, why not just cast invisibility? Or wear a warp cloak?
[i have never played the shadow, but invisibility bonus is a crappy bonus. a good way to boost this class is to give them the autohide bonus. this will give them a distinctive bonus in the epic dungeon. Also, the Shadow hide bonus should not be detectable by other players if he stands still and doesnt do anything or say anything in a room.]
Hospic: Decent in theory for a pure fighter, but since magic is just so incredibly powerful for buffing up, nobody really bothers with a pure figher. And when they do, they choose a more apt race like Troll.
[i dont entirely agree with Weem on this one. exchanging mana for HP is quite a useful bonus. this will give you incredible advantage in combat and especially against mobs. The last couple of thousand mana can determin the outcome of a battle. a pure melee is actually not a bad idea. i wish i was one, all this magic power is making me sick.]
Shield: This is one of the worse ones. It's like a Gnome except worse in EVERY way.
Reed: Useless bonuses on the long term.
[I had a reed, all you get is 2 extra Mobility if i'm correct. WOW HOW USELESS.]
Beauty: Hmmm...><

Troll: -25% complexity is DEVESTATING. Magic is just too strong to turn down like that. And from what I can see, their normal/limb regen isn't good or fast enough to be useful.
[ i know a bit about troll since i'm pretty much the oldest surviving troll in the game. Trolls do have their advantages and disadvantages. Their high strength makes up for their -mobility -ar. Their regeneration is pretty useless because your limbs never grow fast enough to save you. Your HP regeneration is never good enough to save you because battles end so quickly and it takes 3 ticks to start regenerating. When i reached triave, my regeneration was 10. what the !@!%!$? 10 HP every 3 ticks? that's bull#@$@. -20% fire resistance isn't so bad because not everyone uses fire, but this may change. The ability to carry a load of weight is useful, but only like once a year when you have to carry an anvil or a noteboard from one citadel to another. Other than that, the
heavy weight is useless. I suggest that trolls get +20 cold resistance to make up for their -20 fire. body regeneration should be faster so that it is more useful. They should have damage reduction bonus for their huge size and thick skin. -mobility penalty because of their size.]

Dwarf: Prospecting in the mines is just about it for these guys.[not entirely. dwarf do get pretty good base stats. I think that dwarves are very balance right now. please dont touch them.]

Phasian: I suppose being able to runewalk from anywhere is a nice utility effect...But seriously...><[this used to be an awsome bonus, until we lost our ability to runewalk out of battles. This is crazy!!! i say give us back our ability to rw out of battles. Perhaps add in some time lag or loss of mana for performing such action, but we should have the ability to runewalk out of battles]

Orc: Feral rage? A burst of power before death to save your ass...Good in theory, but in practice, you just die.[like what he said]

Gerp: 60% slash resist innate is actually pretty decent! Thats a good amount that can't be severed off, might be usefull in pvp...But with the way things are now, pretty useless.[i think this ability is still very good. 60% resistance is a lot of enchantment space. and these 60% are permanent. In my opinion, this is a very decent bonus]

Lizardmen: Aquabreath. Wow. NEXT![nice base stats but still pretty darn useless. how often do you drown?

Ogre: Some mediocre complexity bonuses...Blargh.[never played, but it seems that no one plays them, hrm, this may suggest something...]

Elf: Better complexity bonuses, but still not on par with the top two. [elves are great. well rounded everywhere. Please leave them alone!!!]

Pixie: A massive complexity bonus, innate fly, and kinshape (quite useful if you are creative) make this one of the most popular power races, and with good reason.[incrediably overpower. why? because if these pixies get their hands on ultra runes and understand how to use them properly they can own almost anyone. a pixie paladin augurer can get at least a wooping 6 AR with spells alone. 6AR = 18000 enchantment space. Hey, it doesnt stop there, what about a pixie paladin/cleric/psionist? this combo will give them a huge advantage over defensive spells. they can easily stack up incredible amount free enchantment space with the proper classes and proper key items. Sure they are weak at first but in the long run, they are incredibly powerful. The game is completely out of balance when you have a load of newbie pixies running around killing veterans. If something is not done, Alora will become pixieland with peterpan flying around.

Gnome: A more advanced version of pixie. Requires a bit of work to get onto the 'normal' scale (getting up to medium or large size), and a little bit less complexity. But with 1 MR per level until 50, and then the ability to buy another 20 with only 10 or so epiclevels...It's basically the magical strength of a Pixie, and the magical immunity of a voider, but only for spells that you wouldnt want cast on you anyway. The best. Identifying items on sight is just icing on the cake.
[the only pixie counter that i know of but i havent acutally tried out because i ran out of alts]
Thats it for now. I'll get started on my ideas on how to balance the races.[Please do!!!]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:41 am 
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I just am focusing on phasians right now:

Runewalking out of battles is a pretty lame concept. I think it's stupid and gives phasians a sick ability in PVP, if the phasian gets worried he's gonna die: "oops I'm almost dead! Well just type runewalk touch 4 and TA DA! I'm away from the battle and at the entrance to my castle now, wheeeeeee ha ha.

I agree they should have more to them besides just prevention of runewalk sickness (all this gives them, really, is the ability to hop from pillar to pillar until they get dropped in a special place). Maybe give them something like....they can runewalk to any of their waypoints at will. Making travelling uberly awesome for a phasian.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:08 pm 
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hmm again that idea is mostly just a utility bonus, cos you can just use travel anyway and then refresh your hp, besides, most places are easy to get to, you just have to know where to astral to

but yes, i agree, the runewalk out of battle was kinda stupid in pvp cos i remember pedra doing it all the time to me.......but again i agree that phasians are nothing more than blue people who can runewalk as much as they like

and the runewalking from out of a room isnt that useful cos you could just cast runegate if needs be, or if push comes to shove, just use supp recall

but the wheel's turning in my brain right now but the hamster is dead so i cant seem to think of a way to balance phasians, i'll get back to you on it


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:24 am 
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Alright, rant time... :D

First off, I'll start in saying that I understand what you people are saying about Elves. Not that they are powerful compared to certain other races, but that are a good medium, and showcase the powerlevel of what a race SHOULD be.

And, in saying that, I would to say that I completly disagree.

It would be both impossible and impractical to have so many races, each with a unique ability, that are also rougly balanced. Impossible. I have seen it before, and I will see it again, it never works. Extreme races encourage 'builds' (a pre-set design for your character that is based on power), as opposed to 'effort' (keeping one character and sticking with it).

The key to balancing races is to simplify them. Less extreme. Sure, races should be different in power, weaknesses, strengths...But ultimatly, it should all come down to how much time and effort you put into it. A decision you make at the chracter selection screen should *NOT* have such a long term impact that most newbies must inevitably remake.

This also brings up numerous other issues. Leveling, and magic. Because of the extreme races, making new characters to suit changes and patches is seemingly encouraged. And because of this, leveling is always a constant issue. People (me included) always want to be able to tri-avater quickly and easily, because its just viewed as an obstacle between you and epic levels. The less extreme races are, the less of a focus there is on making new characters, because there wouldnt be the need to.

The problem with magic is that it favors some races more than others. Magic is just too useful to turn down, more complexity is more power. And this also brings up a yet deeper problem with magic...Since your character never gets any better at magic after getting crowned (a very serious issue), the race is of the utmost importance. Epic levels give you the illusion of infinite leveling, and therefore infinite power, but in reality it is nothing of the sort. Your potential for magic is forever decided at 1/1/1.

The solution to all of these problems is to simplify the races. A good simplification to start with would be to vastly reduce all racial complexity bonuses and penalties. +5%/-5% at most would be plenty sufficient. Of course, since some races rely on this as a main bonus (Pixies) and others as a main penalty (Trolls), the races would have to be completly rebalanced to reflect this.

But the end result would be a selection of races that allowed you to choose a race that you LIKED, rather than one you just wanted to be strong with. It would encourage roleplay and character development.

Another change that could go along with this would be to put more emphasis on magical complexity based on level. Maybe your complexity could raise as you go up in epic levels, based on your classes? IE a Paladin would get a lot more divine as he leveled up in epics, but very little sensory/nature/etc. In addition, complexity points could be bought (this has been suggested many times before), with pricing based on your classes. Complexity points for schools that your character is inclined to would be a lot cheaper (but still expensive).

Some might argue that this would be bad because it would allow 'just anybody' to get very powerful spells, but that isn't true. It would be scaled based on class and how many previous points were bought, preventing somebody from just getting a crazy amount without having a crazy amount of epic levels as well, and using up all their epicpoints on it, as opposed to other things. The more you can do with epic points, the better, as long as it stays balanced.

I guess thats it for now. Please post all your comments!


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 Post subject: well, there are ways to balance, definitely
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:49 am 
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unfortunately, to balance, the changes would be extreme, as you know, thats the main reason why they werent implemented, too much of a shock :)

my solution to the imbalance follows your outline, and would be as follows

classes = gone
races = receive a couple skills inherant to their racial profile, so race 1 gets cool cooking prowess as a innate main skill, race 2 gets melee combat/staves as a main skill, etc
skill points given out every level / couple of levels
skill points are given to the skills to boost them
equipment would have level / skill requirements to use
there would be x amount of max skills, to prevent a player from being specialized in all skills. (so you could be a pure mage, or a mage / fighter, or a fighter cook, with some minor magic skill, etc

course, this is extreme, so, getting back to your idea, i would say races should be more of a 'roleplaying thing' and less of a 'pick this race to become super powerful'


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 Post subject: more
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:08 am 
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i'm sure we are all familiar with diablo 2. I like to see DL adopt skills this way or at least test it out. I like Isabelle's idea of gaining skill points and then we get to invest the points on whatever skills we want. In addition to her idea, i think that skill costs should vary depending on the skill and the class. For example: it would cost only like 2 skill points to upgrade pick for a rogue when compared to 7 skill points for a paladin. 20 skill points to upgrade heal for a warrior and 2 skillpoints for a cleric...you get the idea.


Last edited by lingolas on Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:19 pm 
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i've never played Diablo 2 so lingo's point goes right over my head :P

but it seems that issy's idea reminds me of Morrowind which i really enjoyed cos it'd be cool if we could get stronger in things WE choose rather than stronger in things our class restricts us too

plus it'd complement the crafting side of the game perfectly cos we could configure our characters to a much finer degree :)

AHEM EDIT POINT HERE

i just re-read lingo's post to try clarify things and it made sense this time, i like the idea that it would cost more skill points for a warrior to learn say swords than it would a mage to learn the same skill, so yeah good idea ;)


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 Post subject: balance
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:24 pm 
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now that i have read the 2nd part of weem's note, i disagree with the idea of promoting comformity to balance the races. I believe the exact opposite. I think that every race should be extreme from one another. Races used to be this way. They used to be pretty much the same, the person with the Highest HP is usually the winner in a pvp. Since all the changes and a variety of gams that i've played, i support extremity. the hardest part is to figure out how to make things balance. And here is one way to balance things.

We can assign bonus points to bonuses. For exampel:
25% complexity = 50 points
aquabreath = 4 points
+4 strenghts = 10 points
20% cold resistnace = 6 points
...

Then we assign these bonuses to the races. In the end we make sure that every race get the same amount of points. Races with **** bonuses get alot of **** bonuses. Races with good useful bonuses get only a small number of good bonuses. We know that this is balanced because the points are all equal.

you get the idea, if not let me know i'll explain it in details.

bonus points distribution can also be applied to classes, but this may require alot of work and effort.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:37 pm 
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Ah, Isabelle, you are referring to a classless system :D. My favorite setup. A classless system allows for true customization, your character gets better at what he wants to get better at.

Unfortunetly I, like you, doubt DL will take that path.

And yes, I realize that such extreme changes will probably never be implemented, because it would just take incredible amounts of work, but its fun to theorize and hope. *shrug*

Lingolas:

You are missing the point. I am trying to say that your race should not have a vast effect on the power of your character. The biggest factor should be the time you put in, your intelligence while playing, your skill...Etc.

If you think every race should be extreme...Well, you are looking at it. That's how DL is right now. Races cannot possibly be balanced while they are extreme.

It's like trying to solve an algebra problem with three variables in it by sticking random numbers in and hoping that they work. It's not going to happen. But if you systemically eleminate the variables and break it down, until none of those annoying variables are left, then you DO solve the problem :).

Do you see what I'm talking about?

Simplification is the key.

~Ocardus/Ridley


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 Post subject: yah
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:14 pm 
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maybe what i suggested has little to do with balance. now that i think about it, it has alot to do with uniqueness. I guess i wante to see the uniqueness of every race. not advantages or disadvantages that offset the balance.


also, even with a long complicated equation with many variables, it is still possible to balance the equation, just not as easy.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:40 am 
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:twisted: Please Weems, you should think before you post such comments. Every race stinks except pixies and gnomes, what mud are you playing on, cause its not DL. I have played every race except gnome, and have not had any trouble leveling any of them, and I do not group. Plus you list elves as a poor race, my daughter was 12 years old when her elf made Tri-Av and she loves the race. If you are having problems with even that race, perhaps you should think about playing someplace that is not as demanding. My daughter played on several Mud’s that she thought was too easy and boring, perhaps they are closer to your skill range. Every race has its strengths and weaknesses; you will never make a troll into a super-duper spellcaster. Think about the race and what classes will be best for them and you will find that the races are fairly well balanced. But from your post I can see that you believe that spell casting is all-important, and any race that is not a super-duper spell caster is worthless. It would be interesting to see how your great spell casting choices would fair when pitted against a worthless Voider. You did say that they were worthless in your second post, did you not. I have not played every starsign available to humans, but I have tried a few. First off, humans are an average race and the baseline from which other races diverge. I see starsigns as a means to give them a little help while they are leveling, not a ticket to being a power player. The starsigns that I have tried fill this role very well. You complain that the Fist only saves a few thousand enchant space, could you not then use that few thousand enchantment for some other worthy purpose. And if the Reed is so useless in the long run, then why would anyone waste their epic points on DR, as that is useless to have. Do you adventure naked for the challenge? You say that the Comet is no good as any good spell caster has haste. But what if someone wants to play a pure fighter, and does not have a good haste spell? Oh, I forgot, you sad they would play a troll if they wished to do that. You go on to say in another post that a decision at character selection should NOT have a long term impact, why not? This is your race we are talking about, how can the choice of a race not have a long term impact. One thing that you said does ring true though, “People (me included) always want to be able to tri-avater quickly and easily, because its just viewed as an obstacle between you and epic levels.) That explains a lot of the power leveling I have seen of late. No one wants to take the time to build a character up, then they get to epic levels and get their ___ kicked by the epic mobs. I could go on, but I have wasted enough time on your silly post, I got more important things to do.
Arureal The Absent-Minded Elf
The truth hurts, that’s why I like it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:41 pm 
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Uhm, lets not be attacking people's character through behind the hand sniping. That's bad form, wot? And it just leads to pissing people off.

Anyway, Arureal. As to the point of the super-duper spellcaster vs a voider:

Sure, the spells the spellcaster casts on the voider won't do squat, but the spellcaster has access to speed buffs etc, and the haste juice can only boost you twice, bringing you to about 60 speed. The spellcaster gets the benefits of its own insane haste, time-flux, vigilance, and the overkill of the haste juice.
And on top of that it can wear all the same eq that the voider can, and so all the spellcaster has to do is jab a couple quadrillion times, and if he gets a sever on the Voider, the Voider's toast. But if the Spellcaster gets a sever it spam regens. So I think that unless the Voider was stellarly far better equipped/played than the spellcaster, the Voider would be hard pressed to procure a victory.

He never once said that he was having trouble leveling the other races. But what I'm gleaning from his posts, he's saying that it's a heck of a lot easier to make an uber character out of a pixie or a gnome than it is to make one out of say, an orc. Granted that it would take more effort and work and be more unique to make an Orc is fine, but he's talking about racial imbalances here.

DR purchasing via epic points is pretty much worthless, you get too little for too much after a while, I'm sure you'd agree that 1 DR point for 10 epic points is hardly worth the time given that so much DR is required to actually be very effective, I'd much rather spend my points on stats or Regen after I get the first 20 MR points.

I disagree as well to his points on elves, I play one and he's doing right nicely.

I feel you should re-evaluate how you express your opinions. Much of those Truths as you called them (and I'm not debating the fact) could have been just as easily pointed out without doing what you could to blast his ego. For instance the words: "I disagree" and "here's why" could have been used in place of "you" and "your silly post".

And not I'm not saying the world should be all butterflies and bunny rabbits either with people playing touchie feelie music and holding hands while singing "coom-baya", but if you disagree, bring up counterpoints. We don't want a giant fire fight on the forums.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:44 pm 
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Arureal, I do not know who you are and why you don't understand my points, but it irks me a lot. I felt that I was pretty clear. But I guess I wasn't.

The point isn't that some races are too hard to play, it's that some races are clearly better than others.

You mentioned a pure fighter in your post, and how a comet would be good at being one.

Lets examine this for a second :D . The only way to have a pure fighter is to be a Warrior/Rogue/Bard. They are the only three classes that have no prism magic abilities at all.

As a war/rog/bar, you would have 99% in every armor type, and 99% swords, axes, exotics, daggers, and talonous. Great. The comet would give him a SMALL boost of speed, every once in a while.

Now, lets look at MY 'pure' fighter. A Gnomic Psion/Paladin/Rogue.

He gets one magic resistance per level, and a 20% innate bonus to all complexity schools, 99% in exotics (all I need), 99% in light and medium armor, and 90% in heavy. The spells he casts allows him to:
1. Take half damage from all attacks.
2. Give blunt resist a free 50%.
3. Have about 90ish speed at all times (keeping my buffs up).
4. Get an additional SEVEN attack rating from Bless. (no surps)
5. An additional 3 mobility (9/3).
6. More balance.

THAT is what my spellcasting is for. Not offense. No voider would stand a chance against any well built character. And you know what? Because a Gnome gets 50 MR at tri-av, and then 20+ more from epic levels, he basically IS a voider, except it only stops the BAD spells from hitting him. Do you understand? Breath will not work against me, but I can buff myself up all I want. There is no down side.
As a power player, with an emphasis on PvP, I *CANNOT* turn these kinds of bonuses down. I just can't. If you are saying that powerful races only exist as a kind of handicap for weak players, you are definetly wrong. Races should be as balanced as possible, that is the truth. The fact that I want my chracter to be as powerful as possible should *NOT* force me to give up my ability to be unique.

Yes, every race except Gnome and Pixie stinks. They are either much worse, or the same thing except worse. You can clearly measure them on an OBJECTIVE scale and find a clear cut winner. That is not good, or balanced.

The truth hurts, that's why I like it.

~Ocardus/Ridley


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:58 pm 
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:( To Weems, my deepest apologies, I regretted making that post as soon as I got up this morning. There is no excuse for it, but I am trying to quit smoking cigarettes, and I am a little on the testy side the last few days.
I have been on DL about 3 years now and a DM for the last 25, in that time I got my full of players complaining, and you caught the brunt of it. Again, I am sorry I was so rude in my response. But I don’t believe that all the races should be in perfect balance, if they were, why have different races to begin with.
I am not into Player killing or the arena so some of the points made by others did not cross my addled brain. But I have found no race or class that was unable to handle the mobs on DL by themselves, and if an old scatterbrained nut like me can do it, I don’t see why others can’t. As to why most of you don’t know me, I am not surprised at that. I don’t group, use ooc, ask for heals, resurrection, or help. In 3 years the only thing I have asked for is bloodpurge twice. I tried out so many races and classes to learn about their strengths and weakness before I would devote all my time and effort to a single character. Every one that I tried, I had no trouble with, so in the end my race selection was a matter of personal choice. I like elves and they have been my favorite choice for role-playing for the last 30 years. I love DL because it is a more difficult than other Muds I have tried. I believe that it is even easier to level now than when I started, in fact too easy. I would like to see the difficulty level rise, rather than lower, but it seems I am in the minority on that point. In closing I wish to give my apologies to everyone I offended, including Weems, and I promise not to make a post while climbing the walls in the wee hours of the morning wanting a cigarette.
Arureal The absent-minded elf


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:06 pm 
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I never once suggested perfect balance. Just less extreme races. I don't have any problems with the races being unique. But when they are so incredibly out of balance that I only have two choices when making a new character for PvP, I can tell theres a clear cut problem. They are too different.

You are a DM with 25 years of experience you say? Compare the situation to D&D then. In D&D, the races are not extreme. They are well balanced, especially the base races. You can pick any one you want, and in the long run you wont be significantly hindered. Your racial decision is far more of a roleplay background then a drastic power choice. How you play your character and make your decisions is a far more deciding factor on your power than your race.

This is not true with DL. You could throw 10+ mil in equipment towards a Lizardman, and no matter how uber you got, you will always know in the back of your mind that you would be even *MORE* uber if you had chosen a more powerful race. To my knowledge that doesn't really happen in D&D, even when you choose a race that isnt suited to the class (half-orc mage), when you play long enough your stats will even out.

I can't really see your arguement anymore.

~Ocardus/Ridley


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 Post subject: more
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:20 am 
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i think one of the things that celeborn may have overlooked is that melee fighters have shorter cap that magical classes. a pure melee figher is only as good as his equ can offer. A magical class is as good as his equ can offer and whatever his magic may contribute. an additional 7 AR is 21000 enchantment space. with ultra's god knows how much that can add up to. So far we've just alking about AR, there are numerous of other defensive spells. speed spell multiplies everything. If you can attack 2 times for every 1 attack that your opponent makes, it is equivalent to having your Damage, AR multiplied by 2. Your 7 AR bonus is now like a 14 AR bonus, your 300 damage is now a 600 damage. This is only speaking of twice as fast, what about people who are 3x as fast as their opponent simply because of their race and class? When magical classes get a hold on ultras their spells are even more powerful. On the other hand, a melee class will have little use for the ultras. That's is the same as forfeiting one of the best items in the game.

as you know i mostly focus on pk because i see the game as a competition btwn players. I may overlook nonpk areas, but that's something for someone else to point out.


a voider vs. a magical class( assumming same level and same equ). The voider won't stand a chance.

history:
many years ago, melee fighers traded magic for the upper hand in combat. Magic users on the other hand, were weaker in combat, but were rewarded with magic. Today, well you alreayd know...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 6:04 am 
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If races apart from Pixie and Gnomes suck, then why do people choose them? Because i DO see other people playing them

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 6:45 am 
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well, the reason I don't play a pixie or a gnome is partially because I disagree with them as races because they're too cookie cutter-esque.

*stamp* yay, a powerful character
*stamp* yay, a powerful character

I like to put some effort in my character, and if it means that most of the MUD can school me in PvP because of it, so be it.

Believe it or not, some people don't give a hoot about having an "uberly powerful character" so using the argument "if they're so powerful than why isn't everyone blah blah blah" isn't a very strong one at all. We can still say pixies are too powerful and not play one because of it. Some of us are willing to sacrifice power for fun.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:48 am 
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Avestifal wrote:
-snip-
Believe it or not, some people don't give a hoot about having an "uberly powerful character" so using the argument "if they're so powerful than why isn't everyone blah blah blah" isn't a very strong one at all. We can still say pixies are too powerful and not play one because of it. Some of us are willing to sacrifice power for fun.


Exactly my point. Why in the seven flaming hells should have to sacrifice power for fun? That's STUPID. You shouldn't have to.

And yes, I do understand that not all people care about power, but that's not an excuse for the races to not be balanced.


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