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 Post subject: Player Scale Balance
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 9:34 pm 
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Its whacked

This is nothing you can quick fix, but a move in the right direction is scaling down hp gain, damage, criticals.. The best weapons having 10x crits is just not balanced.

My suggestion for this is first, scale down or remove criticals (Make material, effect durability, enchantment it holds, and how much it can be sharpened, consider a weapon reaching 50% dmg + from sharpening would still be worth alot.. if say a normal one can only be 10% sharpened...)

( and criticals also screw up pvp balance... since some races are immune )

Next is health gain for levels, having 5x health then the other is extreme..

My suggestion for this is first, scale down criticals or even remove it. Make good hits depend on how you attack?

Example: (Maybe implant, low, high, medium attack.. and a parry low, medium, high.. if you hit the parry you have chance for riposte.)



I dont want to bring up the speed issue here in combat, i'll make another thread of it ;P.. i'll leave it as that ;D.. Just some thoughts after i've had from playing the mud..


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 9:49 pm 
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If you were here longer you'd realize the only real way to win is criticals. Removing it would make it so that it's just about impossible to kill any decent player. As for the 10x crit weapons, that's only with emeralite. Try casting the locate spell to search for emeralite, see how much there is.

Material does determin the enchantment it can hold.

Low, high, medium? If you're talking about damage type there is already this in the game. Jab = low, thrust = medium, lunge = high. And for the parry idea, that'd just screw everyone up because you could just make a trigger spamming every single type of attack so you'd block all of them.

No races are immune to criticals.

As for health, there really isnt all that much of a gain as you seem to be trying to put it. Most of it comes from equipment so maybe you should try to focus on either increase the espace it takes to enchant hp, or decrease the amount in mob eq? Either way high hp isnt too much of a big deal anywho.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:25 pm 
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Itachi wrote:
If you were here longer you'd realize the only real way to win is criticals. Removing it would make it so that it's just about impossible to kill any decent player. As for the 10x crit weapons, that's only with emeralite. Try casting the locate spell to search for emeralite, see how much there is.

Material does determin the enchantment it can hold.

Low, high, medium? If you're talking about damage type there is already this in the game. Jab = low, thrust = medium, lunge = high. And for the parry idea, that'd just screw everyone up because you could just make a trigger spamming every single type of attack so you'd block all of them.

No races are immune to criticals.

As for health, there really isnt all that much of a gain as you seem to be trying to put it. Most of it comes from equipment so maybe you should try to focus on either increase the espace it takes to enchant hp, or decrease the amount in mob eq? Either way high hp isnt too much of a big deal anywho.


jab/thrust/lunge high/low/medium - and such a trigger you can take advantage of.

Its enough you can do 2x crits, its way more then you a normal ancestry can hit you 10x is just a overkill


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:42 pm 
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What are you talking about!?

Ancestry doesn't effect crits! WEAPON MATERIAL DOES.

The ONLY material that can do x10 it emeralite and good luck finding that.

i got high on acid; i killed a cop

STOP POSTING UNTIL YOU KNOW WTF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!

No suggestions from you until you're not a complete noob! Holy crap! WTF are you talking about!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:47 pm 
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SEMICOLON'D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:00 pm 
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again... take it to the thread where it belongs, go crunch numbers for the ancestries and you will see their damage per second damage & damage reduction, if someone can do it i would appriciate it but its obvious how much they get......

Here i suggested to move weapons to damage, and variues other things, it would provide and alternative anscestry solution, but keep things where its revelant. This was for player scale....

hp/dmg/criticals (resistances on unruly is realy good I belive, so i dont bring that up here....) and whatever, basicly it boils down too I dont belive someone could be 10x stronger then someone, ever. And I made suggestions forward it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:09 pm 
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Ancestries have nothing to do with how much criticals you can deal. the weapon critical is dependant on the material not the ancestry.

No ancestry is 10x stronger. None. never. Unless there's one made of emeralite........ and I'd choose that one.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:23 pm 
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Tuler wrote:
Ancestries have nothing to do with how much criticals you can deal. the weapon critical is dependant on the material not the ancestry.

No ancestry is 10x stronger. None. never. Unless there's one made of emeralite........ and I'd choose that one.


This is player scale, not anscestry thread if you havn't figured it out, players can get 10x stronger then someone else


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:36 pm 
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About 6 posts up you mentioned ancestries.

So you're saying a level 1 should be the same strength as an e1000?

Or are you saying that you don't like that everyone isn't completely equal? You've heard before that a 50/50 can kill an e300.

Put time into your character and you'll be 1000x stronger, that's what happens when you work at it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:50 pm 
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Tuler wrote:
About 6 posts up you mentioned ancestries.

So you're saying a level 1 should be the same strength as an e1000?

Or are you saying that you don't like that everyone isn't completely equal? You've heard before that a 50/50 can kill an e300.

Put time into your character and you'll be 1000x stronger, that's what happens when you work at it.


Thats my point, noone could be able to be 1000x stronger


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:58 pm 
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Do you mean SHOULD and not COULD. You should seriously proofread or something.

Learn to mine, then see where that gets you. It makes the difference between the weak and the powerful, nothing else. You could be a human normal normal and own a lich/ooze or anything with the right eq.

Seriously, play the game for a couple months then talk.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 1:15 pm 
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gnawer, going back to something ive seen you say before, and yes... using it against you.... Gameplay > Realism... ever read fantasy? in fantasy it /is/ possible for 1 person to be 1000x stronger than someone else.. and on top of that 10x crits just dont happen, even if you have emeralite.. armor has resistances to crits. which means, is joeblow has an emmy dagger with 10x max crit, and im wearing some armor with... oh say 5x max crit, and joeblow attacks me, if and this is a big if because it dosnt happen very often, belive me, joeblow happens to roll a 10x crit, my armor will drop it to 5x instead. and now i would like to make a few comments that should be on your other threads, but they are locked, and i think they are good points, so im going to post them here.

1. Ooze isnt all that great... you look at it from pvp and it blows because 90% acid resists kill you, you look at it from a pure leveling prospective and it blows because crits play such a small role while leveling that the bonus does /not/ make Ooze over powered, actually i like to think they are under powered unless you want to be a tank, and thats it.

2. about speed.... its been in the game for longer than even i can remember, and ive been around for a while at least. it used to be worse, it has been tweaked, and worked on, and seems like its working good enough to me... ever hear the phrase "if it aint broke, dont fix it"? nuff said.

and just so you know... i have pleanty of chars, all diffrent kinda, slow ones, fast ones, ones with high HP, low HP, good at magic, bad at magic, dragons, lich, ooze, and even halfling. so i would say i am qualified to say this: its working the way it is and the only thing i personally think is over powered is Godforged weapons.


and Tuler... you said in one of the other threads "1 hit kills never ever ever ever happen" .... ive been 1 hit killed a few times, on Nimisis, who has very High HP, it can happen, its just not... common


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 5:21 pm 
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Gnawer is gonna complain cause we're off topic, but who cares! :D

In regards to the 1 hit kill thing, were you both of equal level and with full equipment? Those were conditions in my statement. If you were fully equipped and of equal (approximately) the same level 1 hit kills shouldn't be possible because of resistances and the fact that you should have enough HP.. If it did happen it'd have to be one heck of a lucky shot :P (Have sanc too? Spell'd matter)

The issue Gnawer has is that everyone in Dark Legacy is not completely equal in every aspect of fighting, which makes no sense. He keeps talking about gameplay>realism but doesn't realize this is a fantasy game where realism kinda went out the window a long time ago. He doesn't want to have to work to get good equipment, he wants to have 700 hp and be tri-av with no equipment and be equal to everyone else. I'd advise you to just ignore him, he doesn't understand English well either and constantly confuses what people say.

Just talk around him... it's better that way.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:43 pm 
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On the note of godforged weapons, they're really not too overpowered since the attack they do is blockable. The only real overpowered thing about godforges is the fact that you're able to create an item that surpasses the normal means of crafting.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:29 am 
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ShanaArkai wrote:
gnawer, going back to something ive seen you say before, and yes... using it against you.... Gameplay > Realism... ever read fantasy? in fantasy it /is/ possible for 1 person to be 1000x stronger than someone else.. and on top of that 10x crits just dont happen, even if you have emeralite.. armor has resistances to crits. which means, is joeblow has an emmy dagger with 10x max crit, and im wearing some armor with... oh say 5x max crit, and joeblow attacks me, if and this is a big if because it dosnt happen very often, belive me, joeblow happens to roll a 10x crit, my armor will drop it to 5x instead. and now i would like to make a few comments that should be on your other threads, but they are locked, and i think they are good points, so im going to post them here.

1. Ooze isnt all that great... you look at it from pvp and it blows because 90% acid resists kill you, you look at it from a pure leveling prospective and it blows because crits play such a small role while leveling that the bonus does /not/ make Ooze over powered, actually i like to think they are under powered unless you want to be a tank, and thats it.

2. about speed.... its been in the game for longer than even i can remember, and ive been around for a while at least. it used to be worse, it has been tweaked, and worked on, and seems like its working good enough to me... ever hear the phrase "if it aint broke, dont fix it"? nuff said.

and just so you know... i have pleanty of chars, all diffrent kinda, slow ones, fast ones, ones with high HP, low HP, good at magic, bad at magic, dragons, lich, ooze, and even halfling. so i would say i am qualified to say this: its working the way it is and the only thing i personally think is over powered is Godforged weapons.


and Tuler... you said in one of the other threads "1 hit kills never ever ever ever happen" .... ive been 1 hit killed a few times, on Nimisis, who has very High HP, it can happen, its just not... common


Well if you throw in arguments if you get gear against that kind of elemental damage, you must be aware the counter is to get runes in the weapon, and lets say you do 3 diffrent damage, acid, crystal, fire

My guess its only less then 33% dmg reduction then and you have critical immunity, so I dont belive in that argument. You got to compare them to other ascendancies, mindflayer, thrall, dragons, elementals, planar...

Their pro's are definitive not close to lich/ooze.. anyway i'm not gona argue with it further i let the imm decide whats up, and 'if it aint broke, dont fix it' is definitive not a good saying for that purpose, all ascendancies could be viable and useful without any of them behing superior..


This is not a book, this is a game, its a big diffrence. What i mean by gameplay > realism is not 'realism' just, gameplay could always be a priority in a game.

Take for example, players join for all diffrent reasons some join for pvp, some for adventure, some for treasure, some for rp

if scale is 1-10000x stronger, then pvp is out
if scale is 100 - 150-200% then pvp is viable... hope you get the picture, you dont have to exclude something, to get things intresting. Its just numbers..

I'm just bringing forth ideas, not suggesting it could be this way.. consider all the work it could take to balance it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:37 am 
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If you identify a weapon with an elemental rune in it, you'll notice that it says +5 <element>, meaning that it only adds +5 of the total damage, it doesn't change the element of the weapon.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:57 am 
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Gnawer wrote:
My guess its only less then 33% dmg reduction then and you have critical immunity, so I dont belive in that argument. You got to compare them to other ascendancies, mindflayer, thrall, dragons, elementals, planar...


Wrong. You can get 90% for every resistance if you wanted to. See, this is what we mean when we say that you don't fully understand the game. (<- NOT flame: fact)

Gnawer wrote:
Their pro's are definitive not close to lich/ooze.. anyway i'm not gona argue with it further i let the imm decide whats up, and 'if it aint broke, dont fix it' is definitive not a good saying for that purpose, all ascendancies could be viable and useful without any of them behing superior..


:) Good, be quiet about it and let them leave it the way it is. All of them are useful, just not to make everyone 100% equal in combat (physical or magical)

Gnawer wrote:
This is not a book, this is a game, its a big diffrence. What i mean by gameplay > realism is not 'realism' just, gameplay could always be a priority in a game.


It's working great now, the gameplay is awesome, only thing I want is quests.. You seem to be the only one complaining.

Gnawer wrote:
Take for example, players join for all diffrent reasons some join for pvp, some for adventure, some for treasure, some for rp


You're getting closer to understanding the game! :D If you want a treasure hunting char you go with the +luck and +find stats, this will make you weaker in battle, but better in finding cool stuffs!

Gnawer wrote:
if scale is 1-10000x stronger, then pvp is out
if scale is 100 - 150-200% then pvp is viable... hope you get the picture, you dont have to exclude something, to get things intresting. Its just numbers..

I'm just bringing forth ideas, not suggesting it could be this way.. consider all the work it could take to balance it.


Max 200% stronger... the equipment cap is e400 (I think there are some e500, but uber hard to make) that's more than double e1!!

If you're talking ONLY when you first create your character, many people have said that Ooze/lich/vamp are not overpowered.. You can get level 5 equipment that you could toss on a Human/normal/normal and they could own anyone. In a straight up naked brawl of course a lich/ooze is going to win against a normal. BUT if they were a pixie, they lich/ooze would get owned. If they were of level to have breath as dragon, the lich/ooze would get destroyed by the breath.

The game is balanced, it's like chess.. each piece has it's specialty and is more powerful than another (rock/paper/scissors is a more simplistic analogy), you just have to figure out what's the best for the character YOU want to play. It's not just whether you wanna be PVP or Peacie, but how you play the game. (BTW: Grig owns you in PVP)


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