Dark Legacy MUD Forum

Heya!

I would like to start a discussion on the following questions:

Q Is non-epic levelling an essential part of the game? Is it a fundamental part of character creation?

Q: Would starting as an epic character, with more freedom in selecting classes, complexities and skills, be a positive or negative thing for you, and why?

Q: Are dynamically generated areas with a handfull of rich areas (think about a large designed and build city with under it the epic areas) enough, or would you miss all the areas that are currently in the game?

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Celly

Heya Celemabug! Happy to answer any questions.


A: Non-epic levelling really doesn't affect the game at all, in my opinion. After you have (honestly) made one or two tri-avatars, it's just repetitive and serves little purpose, I feel.


A: I think this would be positive. Instead of just having cookie cutter builds (Swashbuckler, Juggernaut, Oracle, Conjurer, any one?) you would be able to make unique characters. This also brings about a problem if handled incorrectly though: Some classes would just be plain more powerful. Also, if you keep in the regular classes, regular tri-avatars would stand no chance against the custom ones. I would suggest either going with Isabelle's advanced levelling idea (basic class and you choose all your own skills) or add the freedom as you go along in epic levels (which would cause more of a curve between e1 and e500...not necessarily a bad thing).


A: Dynamically generated areas would be interesting and may serve to make levelling less repetitive. There is a problem though, an area with no story is just plain boring. If you were able to generate them in a fashion that they could still have stories (and quests) in them, they would be very good though. I would not recommend abolishing all original areas immediately though. It would be nice to see special areas which only appear at certain times also.


Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee Celemabug! Bye bye!

Q1- Non-epic leveling is very essiential because if exploration doesn't take place, then you have loads of noob tri-avs that know how to get from tarsonis to midian to bangrath and astral to dunly. The new level restrictions are perfect becuase they enforce at least minimal exploration.

Q2- Well first of all, starting as an Epic character would make all the already tri-avs angry for there work (even if it was easy). I think that epic classes should have unique abilities within themselves, so people would want to achieve the epic class, instead of becoming an oracle for the classes, and to have high complexities.

Hiya Celeborn! Always here to answer honestly

1) Is non-epic levelling an essential part of the game? Is it a fundamental part of character creation?

Answer: In one word: Yes. Non-epic levelling allows for the knowledge foundation essential after obtaining epic level that alot of people seem to be lacking these days. So unless you can find a way to make people as knowledgeable later on as they are now, or have been in the past, I suggest that people go through non-epic levelling.

2) Would starting as an epic character, with more freedom in selecting classes, complexities and skills, be a positive or negative thing for you, and why?

Answer: More freedom, as far as classes and complexities and skills/spells would be good, but I think there would have to be alot of tweaking with the classes and races before you can even move forward in this. There's too much opinion on either side that races/classes are either balanced or imbalanced too much. Alot of the skills/spells, to be realistic, would have to be based on race more than class. Also, maybe a male/female/neutral basis with some skills/spells? To be honest, I can't see a female having the same strength as a male with some things, unless she's a freak of nature.

3) Are dynamically generated areas with a handfull of rich areas (think about a large designed and build city with under it the epic areas) enough, or would you miss all the areas that are currently in the game?

Answer: While I do think it might be good, I don't. I believe the areas that are in now help people realize that there's ways of learning survival without having to rely on people all the time. I could see something like a new system of areas for those past epic level, but I think the current areas need to be in place for the low-level members. Perhaps take a look at the areas not frequented by the majority and remove them from the areas list, make them inaccessible, and then bring them back if enough people express interest in keeping them?

I hope that helps

Heya!

I would like to start a discussion on the following questions:

Q Is non-epic levelling an essential part of the game? Is it a fundamental part of character creation?

A: Yes. Epic leveling is simply raising the cap

Q: Would starting as an epic character, with more freedom in selecting classes, complexities and skills, be a positive or negative thing for you, and why?

A: positive, because because it allows a player to choose his or her own skills and complexities. The player will have no one else to blame for any deficiencies because they were the one that chose their own skills. I do not see how selecting classes after epic is negative. I don’t know how this will effect me because I don’t know how it will be like. Will this reset the current epic levels? If it does then it maybe negative for me


Q: Are dynamically generated areas with a handfull of rich areas (think about a large designed and build city with under it the epic areas) enough, or would you miss all the areas that are currently in the game?

A: The more areas we have the better. I don’t see how introducing new areas will hurt the current ones. If a player chooses not to go to an old area then they won’t reguardless of whether the new areas are there or not.

All off these questions are very difficult to answer because we simply don’t know enough about them. Maybe you can introduce them for like 3 weeks and then have us vote.

Q Is non-epic levelling an essential part of the game? Is it a fundamental part of character creation?

- It's definitely essential. How else would newbies learn the game? It helps encourage exploration of areas and learning where to find good levelling eq and which mobs give the best exp. Not to it gives them plenty of time to learn basic game mechanics before venturing into the wide world of epic dungeons.
I do agree with Quintos though on his point about experienced players going through the levelling process with new characters. It is repetitive, and tiring. But hey, no pain no gain right?

Q: Would starting as an epic character, with more freedom in selecting classes, complexities and skills, be a positive or negative thing for you, and why?

- It's hard to say. I like the idea of character customization for the freedom and the coolness factor. However the idea of starting in epics would be a major major game change, and it would impact... well everything. So its hard to say. But I'm all for customization.


Q: Are dynamically generated areas with a handfull of rich areas (think about a large designed and build city with under it the epic areas) enough, or would you miss all the areas that are currently in the game?

- Eh, I could really care less about the areas. Not that theyre badly made or anything (not that I ever took the time to look) but when it comes to mudding, I just want to smite things, and get rich and powerful. I hate to sound blonde, but I mud to avoid thinking, to zone out, destress (it may happen) and zombify. I do like the world map though. its pretty badass

Yes. Once you hit Tri-Avatar you can instantly wear good equipment and have very very good spells. It is something you should have to work for, even if you have done it before. Even if it was restricted to people who already have a few tri-avatars, I would still disagree with it. The effort involved in making a tri-avatar characer should always be there.

And this brings into play another problem. IF it was allowed for just the people who have a few tri-avatars...The newbies would have an even harder time than they already do. Usually they are pulled a long by a few veteren players who are making new characters, but if they don't even have THAT, they will recieve even less help.

The key is that a tri-avatar even with zero epic levels has a lot of power if well equipped, and shouldn't be something that can be gained instantly just because you have done it before.

Please, keep non-epic leveling.



This is a moot point because I disagreed with the last question, but I definetly agree that you should be able to have a fully customized character, just that you develop him as you level him.

If anything, I would vote for a fully classless system, like Isabelle has suggested in the Racial Imbalance thread.



Dynamically generated areas are very very fun, but they take a lot of time and effort to make correctly. The ones in Diablo 2 are a masterpiece. They are random but they still keep quests in them and certain other aspects, and can be vastly complicated and gartantuan. If you have not played Diablo 2 before, celeborn, I highly recommend it, it could give you a lot of ideas about area design.

Never having taken the time to tri-av, and never having an epic character, I'm not qualified to comment on non-epic vs. epic levelling.

I also have no concept of epic classes. That said, I agree with the idea of a classless system. Classless systems have been the subject of much discussion both on previous D-L forums and on other forums I have encountered through the years. Unfortunately, I have seen very few good implementations of a classless system. Many have been undocumented or poorly documented. The freedom in creating a classless character can be very confusing. Some people think it would be easier to balance than a class system, but it is at least as difficult, if not more so. I've seen classless systems that allow you to have absolutely no melee or combat casting skills if you choose. That basically leaves crafts, healing skills, thieving skills, etc. It's kinda hard to level if no experience provision is given for players who choose non-combat characters. Then you could do my favorite... the classless and levelless system. Instead of earning exp, you earn character points. Each skill you want is given a certain number of cp's. You also start with a given amount of cp's, and can choose the skills you want.

Dynamic areas? Sounds kewl to me.

Oh yeah, I forgot. CP's are earned in small amounts for successful use of most (or all, if balanced properly) skills, with differing amounts of CP's given either for different difficulties or for different situations.

Q1:Non epic leveling is essential for newbies to learn the game, even if the third time around is a little monotonus. Ucould make it an option when u avatar to go epic with howevermany classes u have or keep working to tri-av. It would be hard, but it is something new.


Q2:Starting as an epic character would be abused by expeirenced players. Newbies would have to learn a whole lot more, a whole lot faster to understand the game and to want to continue, even with more freedoms.


Q3:In my opinion the current system is just fine. You could make a few special places that only appear during a certain in game time frame, that are special place that have special stuff/mobs for all levels.

A) Non-epic leveling is definitely a part of the game. It forces new players to explore around for places where they gain experience, learn more about the game itself, story elements etc.

Even though its a hassle, experienced players can get through that in little time. It is a must for new players, however. I liked it when I started out.

B) FREEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOM!
But with freedom come responsibilities and problems. Experienced players would know which skills to develop to make a godly character. It would be difficult to maintain a balance... But if there is enough freedom, it would eventually balance itself; if there are too many spellcasters, more "witch hunters" with MR would appear; then more "warriors" would appear to slay those, etc.; also, it would depend on how most mobiles are built like. If average mobile's mobility is higher, players would develop skills that improve chances of hitting. If mobiles have a higher hit rate, players would drop mobility and develop hitpoints (why bother increasing mob if you still get hit?) etc.

But the freedom of character skills... Definitely a must. As long as it is well balanced.

C) Yes. But please, have some static unique dungeons.
Ever played NetHack? It is a rogue-like game which generates maps automatically, but every few levels are unique and static (like every 5 levels) with bosses, riches and stuff.

A: Quite honestly, I'm not sure what the point of epic is, exactly. Why have no regular leveling and only epic, it wouldn't be called epic then, it'd be called leveling. Non-epic leveling is too easy to begin with. Epic leveling is just xp grinding... Are you trying to expand the options a level 50/50/50 has, or what?


A:More freedom in selecting classes? How so? You can already pick 3. If you can pick certain classes to use at a time (like switching jobs) that'd be cool. I always say, the more character customization you can do, the better.


A:The old areas are crap, quite honestly. If Bangrath were any more boring, it'd be a MERC or ROM area. I say, go for it. But certainly sounds like something akin to your epic dungeons. As long as there's some static elements and some static areas as well (such as newb areas) I think this'll work. Just try to get it to be a little more... hrm, diverse than epics.

Non-Epic leveling is essential, in my opinion. It is necessary to teach newbies about the game, and it is an investment of time required for an established player to make a new epic character.

With that said, I think that measures to stop powerlevelling and to slow leveling should be undone. Yes, you should have to earn your triavs, but there's no reason for it to be made unnecessarily annoying or tedious(area level restrictions, rules against powerlevelling, etc). Area restrictions are also annoying to triavs, as they interfere with token hunting, curb exploration, and detract from the "real" feeling of the game("you can't take a step south because you are too high level to enter that area, go to an area designed for your level")

Powerlevelling true newbies should be frowned upon, as it results in triavs who know even less about the game than they would if they levelled on their own. For established players levelling alts, however, it should be allowed(within reason). If two players, both of whom have triavs and have little or nothing to learn from non-epic levelling, are willing to devote their time to levelling a single character(one of them using the character and one healing/buffing it or weakening enemies), then there shouldn't be a problem with that. Note that I am NOT condoning one person using two accounts to powerlevel a character, but rather for two actual people on their respective characters to work towards levelling an alt for one of them.

I personally feel that there is no need for leveling areas as we know them. Areas could all be replaced by dynamic "dungeons" much like epic dungeons. Anyone that has played Angband knows what I mean. Personally I would be all for "mini-maps", "planes", and "dungeons" for leveling purposes instead of the current areas.

Is non-epic leveling essential? Depends on what you are calling epic leveling. If its areas verses dungeons, no areas are not needed. Dungeons could replace all leveling areas and be scattered everywhere to allow for exploration. Only problem I see is the need for drain items for use with crafting.

Dungeons could be a lot better. I would like to see more randomly named mobs with personal bodyguards and private armies on certain levels. It would add a bit of a story line to each dungeon, especially if leader mobs controlled the movements of other mobs with orders. Kill the leader and the fight would be a bit easier on that level.

Starting as an epic char? I don't advice it. I would however be all for the game looking at your account, noticing you have already made two epic chars, and letting you start the following chars at epic already. I mean, if you can suffer through two epic chars, what do you really have to prove?

Q: Are dynamically generated areas with a handfull of rich areas (think about a large designed and build city with under it the epic areas) enough, or would you miss all the areas that are currently in the game?

I am completely for this. Its the whole concept I have used on any mud I have worked on designing. Personally I think its a lot more fun, as it changes with each visit. You can't expect the same mob to be there every time. This means people would walk a little more, and astral a little less. If mobs started popping random gear like in diablo, then the craft system wouldn't even be affected by such a change.

First of all, I belive that pre-epic levelling is a major part of growth and learning about DL before epic levels, and that a departure to a total epic-style game would be a major mistake.

That being said, I think that current pre-epic levels need more areas (and more interesting areas) to level in and explore, as well as an influx of new BALANCED equipment to add more variety to pre-epic levels.

Another idea would be to have epic level dungeons styled after pre-epic zones, ie with standard settings, quests etc, but I wont go into detail since that is somewhat off topic.