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 Post subject: Multiclassing as an Option not a Requirement
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:33 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:45 am 
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i see your point and i agree. but there will be no turning back once you hit that epic 1.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:20 pm 
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there's only one way to look at it without feeling sad, or cheated.

there is no level 50 as end game

you level from 1 - 150

the multiclassing thing just gives you extra abilities

epic level 1 is your character

anything pre epic level 1 is simply part of the climbing process

it's just organized to look like you are starting over, you actually arent :)

(that's one way to look at it)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:59 am 
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For a view of /how/ it became like it is:

Once upon a time, all people had was levels 1-50. at 50 they got bored, so multiclassing was added as a means to play on.

At first you could multiclass in every single class. We were afraid this would limit the number of unique characters, and capped multiclassing at max 3 classes.

A some time later everyone was maxed out again, and we decided to go for a more permanent solution: epics.

I'm aware these, combined with absolutely no epic areas, give an awkward (and in your case forced) levelling experience. I've been eyeing the problem for some time now but havent found a non-invasive solution.. yet.

Now for your request: If there was enough request for it I would put the time in. Currently people want the racepatch finished, some powerlevelling issues fixed and more epic area content so those have priority for now.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:08 pm 
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i like the idea also, being able to epic once you hit lvl 50 the first time would be cool, but it would also be alot harder since your char would be so limited, all in all i think its a great idea, it would open up a little bit more RP ability, but maby if we could add in specialized classes, like once you get to level 50 you have a choice to either multiclass or specialize, if you specialize you become an epic, if you multiclass even once you loose the ability to specialize, specialize could be somthing such as Warrior becomes a Knight or somthing of that sort which would mean they gain a few extra skills and maby higher % in one or 2 of their weapons they arnt allready 99% in, a mage would become a High Mage and gain a few extra complexitys in basic, physical, and enchantment (not sure exacly how many) and maby another skill or 2 (maby the ability to use all elemental runes). and so on and so forth.
if anyone likes this idea i may be able to come up with all the specializations for other classes too.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:50 am 
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Wow, Specializing....Sounds like AOD to me.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:32 am 
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i've never played 'aod' , but 'specializing' is almost any stock mud, i was playing on muds that allowed single / dual, or tri class characters since like 1996

it's not new :P


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:14 pm 
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You aren't required to multiclass - you are free to stay as one class indefinitely if you like.

If you want to enable players to become epic with only a single class - fine, let them, it doesn't hurt anything.

However, DL's multiclassing system is great and there is no reason to screw with it and ruin a multitude of existing characters just because one or two people don't like it.

If you want to gain an epic class with a single normal class, fine - but don't screw everyone else over to make it better than multiclassing.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:02 pm 
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why wouldnt you want to multiclass, there more power in complexties.
Beside once your 1 epic you basically have it all. all the non-craft eq level 50.
You aren't required ,this is true!!
In my opinin go for the skills and power or get left behind 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:16 pm 
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the specializing i was talking about isnt just in AOD its in almost all muds ive played, and the point in specializing wouldnt be to make your char mor powerful than multiclassing, it would be an alternative, and because you would only have 1 class it would actually be weaker than multiclassing. it would come out to be just slightly better than a level 50 of what ever class you started as (just give slight bonuses to their main abilitys such as my example for mage and warrior). multiclassing would still be better if your going to raw power and ability, but if you dont wana have to go through levels 1 through 50 3 times you would just do it once, get a slight bonus for specializing and start epicing right away.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:26 am 
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The concern people are probably thinking is "Why should people who work for 3x 1-50s don't get 'specialized' and people who only went through 1-50 once get something special?"

I could agree with something like this where a character gets a bonus in only 1 class. However, I would vote for it to be like the multi-class method to get that 'something'. That something is very broad idealy and can be anything, ie new skills, boosted skills, class-name, class-related-bonus, etc. That would cause huge diversity (depending how it works) but also takes developement(ideas and coding) time.

But currently I think Cele is busy with race/starsign/ancestry patch and most people are wanting that atm.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:43 am 
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yeah, in order to do it as the players want it to be, it would need to be like this:

first, take into account a multiclasser goes through 150 levels to reach epic 1

a single class person would need to do the same, so at level 150, they would become epic level 1

next, the single class player would need enough skills and bonuses to equal a level 50/50/50 triclass character in strength. (i'm sure they would complain otherwise)
which means celeborn would need to make all new levels, abilities and bonuses for each class.

celeborn is working on race /ancestries / secret goodness / etc patch atm, once finished he will be working on secret other patch involving balanced goodness and mayham, and may then consider the idea for 1 class :)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:10 pm 
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actually, the way i was thinking about it a specialized char would not be equal to a multiclass char by almost any measure, it would be slightly better at 1 or 2 things related to their class than would a level an epic level 1 char, but that 1 thing wouldnt be enough to overpower the char, the main reason i suggested specializing was to be a way to get into epics faster than having to multiclass, and because you were more worried about how fast you got to epics you didnt pick up any other classes, which makes you weak compaired to all other classes (that have reached epic) you could put a disclaimer telling them such before then decided to specialize insted of multiclass, then, the people that dont wana start all over again every time they multiclass (and that is the way most look at it) can level and become more powerful without ever multiclassing, but the big thing i cant stress enough is: specializing would be in no way shape or form more powerful that multiclassing, just a quicker method of getting to where you would be aloud to epic.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:32 pm 
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i do understand what you mean

but even though /you/ would want to get to epic faster, others would want to be stronger in their class (since they are specialized) than other epic tri class characters of the same class.

so an epic level 1 warrior would say "i should be a WAY better warrior than that epic level 1 cleric/mage/warrior standing over there"

which is fine, if we are simply discussing what-ifs, i have no problem with it at all.

So now, you need skills which make you a better warrior than your tri class friend. So let's discuss what skills and abilities they should have. But you need enough for every class.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:35 am 
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ShanaArkai, it seems to me that you are fairly new to DL and don't understand much of how the game works, so I hope this will be helpful:


First, about "multiclassing being a requirement" - it isn't a requirement for anything but epic levels. You can duel, craft, kill mobs, and just about anything you want to do without multiclassing. The only thing you have to multiclass for is epicing. Gaining epic levels is boring and tedious; it consists of marching through identical, descriptionless virtual areas and slaughtering identical mobs indefinitely. Epic levels also give you MUCH less power than normal levels, so if you're going to spend time levelling it would be much more beneficial and enjoyable to you to spend that time levelling a second and third class than epic levelling. There are also no new skills or spells with epic levels; you keep the same skills you had as a non-epic character - you gain small amounts of hp, mana, and complexities from epicing, and epicbuy sounds a lot more exciting than it really is(plus the cost of everything goes up with every instance of a particular item you buy). The very best epic gear you can possibly get is barely more than twice as powerful as level 50 gear, and only three pieces of that level gear are in existence yet, that I know of.

Second, you CAN specialize as a warrior, mage, or whatever you want. In DL the TRUE classes are epic classes: Arcane Templar, Dungeon Delver, White Magician, Oracle, etc. "Normal" classes are just building blocks that comprise your epic class; you mix and match your normal classes however you like to customize your epic class. If you want to be the very best warrior you can be at the expense of everything else, be a human with the starsign "the void" and take warrior, paladin, and rogue as your classes, which is a "Champion". Paladin and rogue add to your warrior-like skills with new attacks and special "holy avenger" weapons, making you a better warrior than people with other epic classes, though you WILL be weaker overall(champion and void are both pretty poor choices because focusing PURELY on melee with little or no supporting magic isn't a good idea, but you CAN do it).

DL is a very versatile game, and you can play just about any character you want through the multiclass and epicing system. If you want to be a pure warrior, try a void champion or baladeer(warrior/rogue/bard). If you want to be the best possible caster, go Shaman(mage/cleric/druid). If you want to be the best "battle caster", with the best mix of offensive and defensive magic, go Oracle(mage/cleric/psionicist). If you want to have the most powerful offensive magic possible, go Conjurer(paladin/mage/psionicist) or bard/mage/psionicist(dunno what that is).

As I said before, you can also stay as a single- or dual-classed character and focus on improving your gear. I had a dwarven friend, Xoren Da'ell, who stayed as a warrior/paladin forever and focused on mining and crafting gear for himself. He was able to beat a lot of triavatars who spent their time epic levelling, through superior equipment and tactics.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:33 am 
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i am not a new player to the game, i have been playing for well over 2 years atleast, possibly 3. and i know how epicing works, but i would put almost any amount of money on it that after the new race patch a level 50 or level 50/50 would have no chance at killing my main in the arena (nimisis btw) and i happen to find epic levels to be alot more fun than the normal kind, although leveling in general isnt all that great imo, and to be honest i would probly only specialize one class, just to see how it played if they were ever put in. also i would like to point out that i never said multiclassing is a requirement, whoever started this topic did. and the whole point behind me suggesting specializtion was so that you could just go stright to epics without having to go through levels 1 through 50 more than once, but something i pointed out was if you were able to do this it shouldnt be nearly as powerful as a multiclass char because your abilitys would be very limited.

now about the skills/abilitys you would or could gain from a specialized class if it were ever put in, these are just ideas and may or may not be very unbalanced as of right now

Warrior: raise all weapons to 99% (or all weapons raised up by 5% extra other than the ones that are allready 99%), also possibly a skill that would increase crit % (this shouldnt be overpowering due to the fact that warrior is a non caster and cant speed themselves up)

Mage: +4 physical +2 basic +2 enchantment complexitys, and no casting penalty for holding staves

Cleric: +4 Body +2 Defensive +2 sensory complexitys, and the ability to use turn undead more often

Druid: +4 nature +2 summoning +2 body complexitys, and the ability to control 2 elementals (since they are going to be fixed, this shouldnt be a problem)

Bard: slightly increased effects of bard songs, (cant come up with any more for bard)

Psionicist: +4 mind +2 physical +2 basic complexitys, also an increase on the max number of charms at a time

Paladin: +4 divine +2 body +2 defensive complexitys, and the ability to use their hands abilitys more often

Rogue: a skill to brew poisons (none being high level, and costing xp like a magic users ability to brew potions), pickpocketing mob enabled (setting a max to how much could be stolen from a mob per repop, equiped items unstealable, and a .1% chance of stealing a small chest once the skill is maxed, but you would only have 1 chance per mob per repop to steal a small chest from them)

Ranger: 99% in Bows and crossbows, and the ability to poison their arrows

i belive that is all of the classes, yes i know it isnt enough to make a specialized char equal to a multiclass char. but if you read my other posts i honestly dont think they should be if they are put in in the way i am speaking of.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:54 pm 
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You should not try to "balance" specialized chars. It should be like Zions are now. An option for those unwilling to go the way of everyone else. let them keep their skils, add an option forgoing other classes and then let them epic.

No need to try and rebalance everything for a couple ninnies.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:21 pm 
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Thremp wrote:
You should not try to "balance" specialized chars. It should be like Zions are now. An option for those unwilling to go the way of everyone else. let them keep their skils, add an option forgoing other classes and then let them epic.

No need to try and rebalance everything for a couple ninnies.


I think that sums up my opinion pretty well, too.

Also, what are you going to do when the level 50 warrior/e500 whatever realizes that it was very foolish to gain 500 epic levels without multiclassing and wants to have two more classes added?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:09 pm 
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tell them too bad, they shouldnt have specialized, thats also why you put a warning stating there is no turning back


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:09 pm 
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or, not allow it in the first place, and not worry about it :)

if a single class was allowed, it would /have/ to be at least close to being balanced with the other players, if it wasnt, it would always generate complaints, always.

Or.. it would be used by what 1, two people, ever..

Is the work required to make it possible, the increase in memory to make it possible, really worth the one or two players who might use it, (to eventually realize they want to be as powerful as their counterparts, and end up complaining about it)? :)

Rest assured, the new players who choose the single path course would be like 'omg, i didn't know i would be WEAKER, thanks for screwing me out of all this time, you admins!

However, i am interested in single classes.. if.. dual and tri class characters are nerfed accordingly,
or..
making single class characters more powerful than tri class, eventually weeding dual and tri class out of the picture, and replacing it with something else :)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:52 pm 
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Isabelle wrote:
or, not allow it in the first place, and not worry about it :)

if a single class was allowed, it would /have/ to be at least close to being balanced with the other players, if it wasnt, it would always generate complaints, always.

Or.. it would be used by what 1, two people, ever..

Is the work required to make it possible, the increase in memory to make it possible, really worth the one or two players who might use it, (to eventually realize they want to be as powerful as their counterparts, and end up complaining about it)? :)

Rest assured, the new players who choose the single path course would be like 'omg, i didn't know i would be WEAKER, thanks for screwing me out of all this time, you admins!

However, i am interested in single classes.. if.. dual and tri class characters are nerfed accordingly,
or..
making single class characters more powerful than tri class, eventually weeding dual and tri class out of the picture, and replacing it with something else :)


I think the first solution you mentioned there is the correct one. DL evolved into a fun multiclass/epic system, devolving it to single-class would be pretty pointless and probably screw over existing players with three classes. Allowing players to epic as a single class and nerfing players who choose to play the game how it is now will screw those players over even worse, and is completely pointless. Additionally, while one or maybe two people want a single-class system...how many people do you think like the multiclass system and want to keep it?

If you really, really want to play a single class character and can't stand multiclassing - don't. No one's forcing you to multiclass, and you wouldn't be able to compete with triavs even if you DID gain epic levels....so why bother?

Normal levels are superior to epic levels in pretty much every way and there is no reason not to take all of the normal levels you are allowed before epicing. If you can't accept how it works, there are a LOT of muds out there, I'm sure one has some kind of infinite levelling system where you only take one class.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:28 am 
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ok, how about letting them multiclass into the same previous class. This way, in the end they become something like 50w/50w/50w. Epic title Master Warrior. After they reach this level they can go on and epic like the rest. BUT, they skip out on alot of skills, but then this is what they really want so there will be no pity.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:22 am 
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to be honest, i wouldnt want to play a single class char, i was just trying to supply idea's, i compleatly agree with you nutiari, there really is no point in doing it, but also is there a real point in having a permy other than just to say you did it? not really, but then again thats not quite the same. but there is no harm in giving random idea's even if they never will work out, maby they will somehow help to shape DL in the future :)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:58 am 
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Your suggestion was fine, it's just one of those things, where the application of the idea needs alot of discussion and work to make it fit in properly.

(and it would need to be accepted by players)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:57 pm 
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make single-class avatars able to get into epics, but you have to sac like, 4X the amount :P

(20k per epiccing, hehehe)

i donno, i was just thinking that if someone wanted to stay a single class badly enough theyd be able to find 20k (10k, 15k, whatever) to go epiccing with... or maybe have to pass some special quest to prove themselves worthy enough/strong enough to stand the mobs in the dungeons

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