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 Post subject: Economy Changes - Object classes, how to assign?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:40 pm 
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For the new currency code to work I plan to split objects into the following categories:

- Abundant: Pops all the time, easy obtainable, low value
- Common: Pops less, but is still encountered a lot. mediocre value
- Rare: Pops rarely, high value.
- Extremely Rare: Pops very rarely, very valuable
- Artifact: Possibly only one of each in existance, extremely valuable.

I prefer to apply a calculation to decide in which class an object belongs, based on the objects prototype. Any ideas? :)

Some criteria that an item prototype might have to fullfill to be a certain item class.

Abundant:
- No affects on prototype
- Abundant materials (copper, bronze, iron)

Common:
- 'a few' affects on prototype
- just beyond common materials (silver, gold)

Rare:
- 'a moderate amount of' affects on prototype
- Rare materials (meteorite, adamantite)
- Any minor effects (like NIs's rogue dash I).

Extremely Rare:
- 'a large amount of' affects on prototype
- Extremely rare materials (emeralite)
- Any mayor effects (like NIs's rogue dash X).

Artifact:
- 'a very large amount of' affects on prototype
- unique power? No idea, since there is no code for this yet.

I cant specify amounts exactly, since they are dependant on item level, and possibly its effects. (an item with 4 effects might be a rare item when it is level 1, or common when its level 50). Also, what are considered rare materials may vary based .


Any ideas? :)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:59 pm 
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Abundant:
- No effects on prototype


Common:
- 1 to 2 effects on prototype
- add distinction to certain types of enchants? like aff by sanctuary, or aff by truesight increasing an objects "rarity value" up a notch?


Rare:
- 3 effects on prototype
- Rare materials (meteorite, adamantite)
- Any minor effects (like NIs's rogue dash I).


Extremely Rare:
- 4 to 5 effects on prototype
- Extremely rare materials (emeralite)
- Any major effects (like NIs's rogue dash X).


Artifact:
- 5+ amount of' effects on prototype
- unique power? No idea, since there is no code for this yet.
- unique power possibly involving sockets, or (insert new socket-like effect here, which player can use to boost items power)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:06 pm 
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existing armour/weapons will require something else, as pretty much all ingame equipment would be placed under rare+ under the new system

i'm sure we can figure out something, that would make people want to go through and disenchant all their gear for their base resources.

The easiest thing would be to wipe all in game (non craft for the moment) equipment of stats. Or, if the reward was beneficial, perhaps /all/ equipment stats wiped?
If thats possible.

Note: this would leave the object intact, so that players could either enchant, or disenchant at their discretion.

OR, what if all current gear, has all its stats merged into category uncommon. Allowing the person to disenchant at their leisure. I see this happening already on certain old items, where removing a stat results in the removal of like 3 stats all at once, because they are sharing the same number.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:28 pm 
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Just an idea (admittedly stolen from Diablo II):

You don't know what class an item is before it's IDed (Just "short sword" for example.
When IDed, an item would either be:
Abundant, no change in name ("short sword")
Common, one or two affects ("flaming short sword of health")
Rare, multiple affects (2 or 3 at low levels, 4 or 5 at higher levels) but still not extremely strong ones ("shiny molten short sword of vita")
Extremely Rare, variable affects depending on level, possibly a special effect, and a name which shows that it is not just rare ("Plaguebearer Short Sword of Doom")
Artifact, long list of strong affects, most likely a special effect, and a kickass name that shows that it's kickass ("Jimi's Legendary Scramasax")

Also, just because a weapon is a higher class does not mean it would be better in all situations. Although an abundant is basically always worse than others, a very good pop on a rare may be better than an extremely rare due to the nature, level, and variance of its affects.

You may recieve a shiny molten short sword of vita which has +23 lightning damage, +24 fire damage, and +159 hp, whereas your Plaguebearer Short Sword of Doom may have +25 poison damage, +75 mana, +76 hp, 3% enhanced damage, and +2 strength.

Although you might assume that the extremely rare is gonna be better because you got it from a similar mob and its a higher class, you would actually have to look at what items you got in order to decide which to use.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:58 pm 
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Just as a clarification, when i'm talking about giving items a class, I am talking about the /prototype/ version of an item, not the player-enchanted version.

Lets take these items for example:
Sword1 (Rare), +2 str (prototype), +2 dex (enchanted)
Sword2 (Common), +2 str (enchanted), +2 dex (enchanted)
Both swords are equal, but still Sword1 is a higher class item than Sword2. Why is this? Because sword1's strength enchantment isn't calculated into the enchantment price, while with sword2 it isn't. The potential of the first sword is greater.

I'm talking about classifying items based on their prototype attributes, not destroying/revising the whole object base. If the current object base lacks artifacts, or there are not enough common items, we'll add them. But we wont be changing every single item around just now, for obvious reasons. ;)

Since all pre-patch craft items are crafted from the same unenchanted prototype, they will probably all classify purely on material type. To be fair, and give people a proper value for their already crafted items, I might manually increase the value of special or exceptional items. (With the new craft system, forging/tailoring/etc will allow crafting of better prototype items, thus allowing better ratings).

Ramble ramble :P


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:01 pm 
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Ah, I didn't read the notes closely enough and didn't get the whole meaning. I apologize.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:09 pm 
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Quintos wrote:
Ah, I didn't read the notes closely enough and didn't get the whole meaning. I apologize.


I'm not complaining! :) :P I think a Diablo-ish solution would work, but I currently do not have the time to implement something like that. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:33 am 
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whatever you plan on doing with equ, please keep the current basic craft/encahnt system. Eventhough they made mob equ's almost worthless, they have contributed to great diversity in equ on DL. No two people's equ are exactly the same. There are every equ for every taste! I know i'm off topic for this thread but one thing that we can do is having mobs poping items that are necessary for crafted equ. for example: mobster X pops thorns that can be used to hook onto a shield and turn it into a thorny shield. This way, mob's equ and crafted equ can coexist.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:38 am 
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lingolas wrote:
whatever you plan on doing with equ, please keep the current basic craft/encahnt system. Eventhough they made mob equ's almost worthless, they have contributed to great diversity in equ on DL. No two people's equ are exactly the same. There are every equ for every taste! I know i'm off topic for this thread but one thing that we can do is having mobs poping items that are necessary for crafted equ. for example: mobster X pops thorns that can be used to hook onto a shield and turn it into a thorny shield. This way, mob's equ and crafted equ can coexist.


I plan no limits on diversity. I'll work out a picture on how things are going to work, and post it here later today. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:19 am 
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Celeborn, keep in mind...A lot of this stuff is specifically going to make melee/ranged type players a HELL of a lot weaker it seems, while leaving casters mostly untouched. Casters only need max str, dex, int, wis, and maybe luck. Beyond that, they can put whatever they want.

Melee users however...Need attack roll and damage roll in addition to all the stats. That may not seem like much from just that...But the shear /QUANTITY/ you need makes up for it. Im talking easily in excess of 100,000 enchant space for the average fighter type.

So to counteract this, you need to make some sort of similiar penalty for casters, or something. SOMETHING needs to be done. It's a problem RIGHT NOW, even before this change comes out. This whole change will amplify it much much much more. It will become a major issue.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:22 am 
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we have an idea that would affect everyone across the board, and may/will help balance things.

I will refrain from going into details until Celeborn deems it ready :)

(it's a super good idea, but we want to keep the complaints to a minimum, considering no changes have even been implemented yet ;))

(but, a teaser: it will affect all players, all skills, all spells, and will allow us to make certain skills currently considered lame.. much more worthwhile to use, (like making bash or headbutt more powerful))

but, we will do these patches first, then hit you with the other one later ;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:36 am 
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Isabelle wrote:
much more worthwhile to use, (like making bash or headbutt more powerful))


it's a bit off topic, but i just want to say that bash definitely doesn't need a boost, it's quite powerful* as it is.

*(bashing is a group oriented skill, if you have 2 or more people vs a mob bash stops 90% of the attacks and retreats)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:48 am 
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A few things...

New/better/insanely hard-to-get equipment to get is a great idea. Right now crafts are -extremely- overpowering compare to attributes on 95% of NPC gear. For example, most of us use elemental band due to extended spell duration... but after casting it, players can simply remove it and wear his/her e200 40,000 space ring for oh.. +300 damage roll,+1500-2000HP, or insanely high mobility add. And there's over 20 crafted pieces of equipment and a player can customized for maximized result. I don't know about nerfing crafts as total; I'm not against the idea.. but a few people who lives in the mines would probably be ticked off, to bluntly state it. Either nerfing crafts or not, I highly think new npc gear for lets say e100 level requirement, e200, e400, etc too, that has decent effects and attributes. And I think you have awesome ideas regarding this Cele, great job!

Another thing is branch off the above regarding dieties and gear. An example would be certain gear like Vision of Order/Chaos to have a diety restriction; the dieties could probably be classified as good, neutral, or evil. I would reconmend only adding this to future made gear though to avoid complaints of current equipment. This is an idea but my idea is not to tag every piece of new equipment with a diety restriction though.. just something for roleplaying and diety purposes.

(Sorry wasn't sure if this belong here or not when I post it, please move it to another thread if not appropriate.)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:13 pm 
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Weems wrote:
So to counteract this, you need to make some sort of similiar penalty for casters, or something. SOMETHING needs to be done. It's a problem RIGHT NOW, even before this change comes out. This whole change will amplify it much much much more. It will become a major issue.



Balancing by screwing everyone over equally isn't a good policy, it just makes EVERYONE unhappy. It's best to not screw anyone over in the first place, which makes considerably less people unhappy ;)


Isabelle wrote:
(but, a teaser: it will affect all players, all skills, all spells, and will allow us to make certain skills currently considered lame.. much more worthwhile to use, (like making bash or headbutt more powerful))


Bash and headbutt are both very powerful, and do not need buffing. Headbutt was fixed when Celeborn fixed inner peace and bash has always been good.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:11 pm 
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Isabelle wrote:
we have an idea that would affect everyone across the board, and may/will help balance things.

I will refrain from going into details until Celeborn deems it ready :)

(it's a super good idea, but we want to keep the complaints to a minimum, considering no changes have even been implemented yet ;))

(but, a teaser: it will affect all players, all skills, all spells, and will allow us to make certain skills currently considered lame.. much more worthwhile to use, (like making bash or headbutt more powerful))

but, we will do these patches first, then hit you with the other one later ;)


You must be joking. Complaints? WHO CARES?

Tell us whats up. We can help. We DO help.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:13 pm 
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Nuitari wrote:
Weems wrote:
So to counteract this, you need to make some sort of similiar penalty for casters, or something. SOMETHING needs to be done. It's a problem RIGHT NOW, even before this change comes out. This whole change will amplify it much much much more. It will become a major issue.



Balancing by screwing everyone over equally isn't a good policy, it just makes EVERYONE unhappy. It's best to not screw anyone over in the first place, which makes considerably less people unhappy ;)


I don't consider nerfs to be 'screwing people over' :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:21 pm 
Okay, maybe to get just a little bit back on topic here...

I think a way you could use a math formula to put eq into the categories is use the current enchant system (or something like it) combined with a few extra tidbits. Let me try to explain:

Given example eq: a bronze sword, lvl 20, dmg 15 to 50, +2 str, +5 damroll
In order to enchant on +2str, +5 damroll, you would have to have 250*2+150*5 = 1250 space. So start with 1250.
Then add some value based on how much damage it does & the level (average of 32.5 damage = 1.625 damage per level * some predetermined constant)
the material (bronze so add 0)
and possibly the category of weapon (i.e. if you want swords to be more abundant).
Say your final value ended up being 3000 or something. Then decide where you want your values to fall, for example:
Abundant = 0 to 1000
Common = 1001 to 4000
Rare = ....etc
And the sword above would be a Common sword.

Obviously, like you said, craft-skill-enchanted-on affected-bys and stats, etc. will not influence the rarity of the object. If this is unclear, let me know and I'll post a more thorough example.

On a side note, an idea for artifacts: Have them add random affects and stats based on the class(es)/level/stats of the person who finds the item. For example, if the finder is mostly a fighter type, have the artifact add damroll, hps, etc... Get a feel for what the players would like to have for specific class types. This may not work out well for people who want to gift their artifacts, though.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:47 am 
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I personally would rather have equipment I KNOW I can get ahold of. As a player I don't feel like running around aimlessly killing random mobs to get randomly generated items hoping, just hoping I get an item I can use.

Pros:
1. Less (to no) mob camping for specific items.
2. It would be a self-balancing eq system.
3. Less item value exploits.

Cons:
1. Dynamic economic impact.
2. Spam. Items won't stack.
3. Items that don't make any sense, IE full plate armor with INT affect?

Currently crafted items are FAR superior to spawned items, will this change?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:21 am 
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First, to clarify a little, a basic plan here, is for us to 'know' what limitations there will be to a players gear.

As everyone knows, enchanted equipment has no comparison to npc equipment. It's vastly more powerful. The enchanting kind of spiralled out of control, and then we were running around trying to correct the super serious flaws, leaving us with mostly a mess.

So, the changes we mention are enchantments that we believe will be controlled.

We ARE talking about formulas, (blueprints, recipes, etc) which the players will use to enchant their gear with.

Now, getting back to your post, monster generated loot.

There are a few forms of Monster Generated Loot, theres the kind where a formula is used, determined by the location, and the npc in question, and varying stats can be found on an item.

The other form, is us creating "pools" of predefined items, no one mob will be camped, as the goal would be to spread it out among creatures of a similar level. A balance can be struck if done properly.

---->
However, Celeborn has not mentioned any plans for monster generated loot yet, we are only addressing enchantments, and skills and spells for the next little while.

So anything other than those ideas, are purely speculative ideas being tossed around, and there is no immediate concern for them.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:36 am 
Isabelle wrote:
However, Celeborn has not mentioned any plans for monster generated loot yet, we are only addressing enchantments

I am a bit confused now. I thought (based on Cele's 2nd post on this thread) that we were talking about eq "prototypes" which are the eq BEFORE any enchantments. My post may have sounded like I was talking about enchanted eq, but I am just talking about using the enchant costs for eq stats to give a numeric equivalent, so that:
Celeborn wrote:
I prefer to apply a calculation to decide in which class an object belongs
this would be easier to do.


Jorelani wrote:
I personally would rather have equipment I KNOW I can get ahold of. ..... 3. Items that don't make any sense, IE full plate armor with INT affect?

While I think Cele has made it clear that he is going for FUN and not realism, I can understand what you mean. Also, upon further reflection, I suppose I agree that random eq would be a bit of a pain if it didn't reflect the hard work you put into it. I was just spitballing a way to more or less make artifact level eq unique and yet desireable for a variety of player types.


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 Post subject: craft eq to regular eq
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:04 pm 
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:idea: Since we are thinking on changing the system why not throw in a base class/race equipments. Likda like a equipment just for rogues on a pop. Example: Pixie bound or if a classes are Rogue/psionicist/cleric. The base class is rogue so the item will be rogue only with the idea celeborn came up with on the sword1 compare to sword2 (scroll up). The same classes in a different order like Psionicist/rogue/cleric the item will to bound to psionicist.
Another idea is to make the items combine to itself. Example: sword1 will combine to sword2 if it pop but a drawback you can put is you get to pick one choice of stats on the sword2 thus creating an item (sword3) maxuim caps. Maybe with or without enchantment ablility could be another choice.
Another idea is you can enable the pop item sword1 to add the deity fate. So if the player is in Hor diety it can only be pass down to that deity. And i just throwing some ideas out here to make the items a bit tough but at the same time can be pass down to another player.
Opinion:
I think about the a item being binded to a single player and cant be pass down to another alt or players it make the item to difficult to be worth wild to get. I mean do you want some day for all players/alts to have all binding equipment like the "Dragonscale Choker" it up to you. To me this floods the gameplay and enable a slight more chance of a crash to happen. Few players/alts want to combine items to have powers, not a big deal as long its not ability that is for Rogue(detrap) and the player has a classes like Warrior/cleric/mage. I consider this makes the gameplay to powerful and discerption. Just some ideas you can combine maybe 2 ideas. Example: pixie binded, and the fate (deity) for rarity. :wink: Dont quote me on my opinion

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:12 pm 
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Isabelle wrote:
However, Celeborn has not mentioned any plans for monster generated loot yet, we are only addressing enchantments, and skills and spells for the next little while.

So anything other than those ideas, are purely speculative ideas being tossed around, and there is no immediate concern for them.


Alrighty then. It just seemed to me that this was were the common/rare/unique thing was going to head.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:49 pm 
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Jerardo wrote:
A few things...

New/better/insanely hard-to-get equipment to get is a great idea. Right now crafts are -extremely- overpowering compare to attributes on 95% of NPC gear. For example, most of us use elemental band due to extended spell duration... but after casting it, players can simply remove it and wear his/her e200 40,000 space ring for oh.. +300 damage roll,+1500-2000HP, or insanely high mobility add. And there's over 20 crafted pieces of equipment and a player can customized for maximized result. I don't know about nerfing crafts as total.

You can edit the items level by cutting it in half the level. Example: If a e400 has a 20% to pop a e200 piece of equipments whatever from Normal to Exceptional quality.
Jerardo wrote:
example being certain gear like Vision of Order/Chaos to have a diety restriction; the dieties could probably be classified as good, neutral, or evil. I would reconmend only adding this to future made gear though to avoid complaints of current equipment. This is an idea but my idea is not to tag every piece of new equipment with a diety restriction though.. just something for roleplaying and diety purposes.

:shock: Maybe its me but this is being realistic with the good and evil. If the [PC] crafts a equipment and he belong to maybloom deity which is in conflict with the Followers of Tlock. I think this is a war not good vs evil. Remember making a evil deity its just conflict. Example: war like Sekhmet deity. Its just different its the people choice and make it fun to pick a Sekhmet to maybe represent that character of war not a battle good vs evil. They're is more conflict in the gameplay here then good and evil just pick one of the following: under deities :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:36 pm 
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There is no good and evil, deity restrictions are available to builders at this moment, and once Celeborn creates a means for us to create the preferred style of mud run quests, we may have such items floating around.

Binding items is not a test thing, that we don't know how it will work out, Celeborn and I and most of the other admins have already viewed such a system in place, elsewhere, and it works nicely. So don't be afraid that it's the end of the world, it will work out, things will change across the board.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:26 am 
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Zidane... please RRR my post... I don't understand your reply in any relation to my post. Can you explain?

Thanks for reply Isa, I'm thinking of 3 alignment catagorys of good/neutrel/evil. Dieties such as Mitrill (order), Halycon(peace) are good, Hor (dishonesty) are neutral, and Bath.. (Chaos) is evil. What I'm hinting at is a quest for the 3(?) catagory alignments later on. Ie good alignment dieties gets 'divinity's artifact', elemental band upgraded version. My idea isn't for any thoughts of diety/alignment war, but rather an idea for quest regarding diety requirement for alignment items, idea for possible future gear.


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