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Economy Changes - crafters take a peek please! {Revision 2}
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Author:  Vogar Eol [ Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:16 am ]
Post subject: 
- off topic subject, take it to the other thread please, as requested - cel
Author:  weems [ Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
After thinking about it, I'm going to have to disagree with people getting getting their processing skills converted into additional harvesting skills.

The reason being, because of the new mining patch, many people have gotten many valuable resources that they had no right in getting based on their harvesting skills. (IE zero percent jade miners mining hundreds of jades, zero percent meteorite miners mining hundreds of ore...etc). Because of this, it would allow people who simply exploited the new and (no offense intended cele) highly unbalanced mining system, to get skills in mining that they would otherwise have never gotten.

So I would say either leave it it's own skill, or have some other reimbursement.
Author:  weems [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:16 am ]
Post subject: 
NPC item enchanters.

Can we see some of these as well? Maybe that could do up to specialist level stuff?
Author:  Celeborn [ Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:29 am ]
Post subject: 
weems wrote:
NPC item enchanters.

Can we see some of these as well? Maybe that could do up to specialist level stuff?


I think i'll keep it a player thing. Enchanters, like any other crafter, worked hard for their crafts. Even specialist capped NPC enchanters would be ouchy.
Author:  weems [ Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
I definetly think reimbursing people by giving them resources is a far better way to do it than skills. Its fair for one, going from 0 - 100, you inevitably ruin some resources. Not a whole lot, but some. You (celeborn) could probably very accuratly determine the average quantity of resources ruined going from 0% - 100% while using 1 resource at a time. Then simply give people back that quantity of resources that they had adepted in. Or less, if its less than 100%.

Everybody wins with this, and nobody gets unfair extra mining skills by abusing the new(er) mines.
Author:  Nuitari [ Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
weems wrote:
I definetly think reimbursing people by giving them resources is a far better way to do it than skills. Its fair for one, going from 0 - 100, you inevitably ruin some resources. Not a whole lot, but some. You (celeborn) could probably very accuratly determine the average quantity of resources ruined going from 0% - 100% while using 1 resource at a time. Then simply give people back that quantity of resources that they had adepted in. Or less, if its less than 100%.

Everybody wins with this, and nobody gets unfair extra mining skills by abusing the new(er) mines.



Sounds like a perfect solution; it is fair to everyone involved and doesn't sound too hard to do.
Author:  Arureal [ Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:12 am ]
Post subject:  Fixing Foraging
I love the concept Celeborn. I did notice that you were unhappy with some aspects of the foraging skill.
On Foraging, perhaps it can be saved by replacing the odd items with useful items like spider silk and wild cotton and cotton from cottenwood trees in small amounts and for more areas, or
Trapping
- Fur
- Hide
- Bones

Something along those lines, just a thought.
Author:  Arureal [ Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:09 am ]
Post subject:  On the effort put into processing
I agree with Weems on the number of attempts to reach 100%, Its at least in the ballpark. However I have most of my processing in scales. It took more time and effort to raise scales than it takes ore, plus salvaging is a slow skill to master also. The gain for scales is 1.5 per scale. As for compensating players, it would be very hard judge what is fair, but any compensation would be nice.

Giving skill levels for compensation would not work for my character. It would push him over 100% unless you spread it over every skill he has. I am sure there are others in the same boat. So a resource reward would be easier to do and fairer in the long run.
Author:  Vogar Eol [ Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:48 am ]
Post subject: 
After some thought, I began to wonder about something.... how is glory going to be involved in the game?

From what you seemed to have come up with, enchant space doesn't seem to be a part of an item. Quality and level seem to determine the number of enchants the item will hold. I would assume since your counting enchants, "size" of enchants is not relevent. Am I correct?

If glory has no use in crafting, what then will it be used for? Will there be special item modifications that can be "bought" for glory? Will glory be removed from the game?

In short, I am interested in a more detail about how enchanting will work, and how glory will be involved.
Author:  Vogar Eol [ Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Another thing about crafted items. Would it be possible to code that a maker's family name would be included when he works on an item? So it would say the crafter is "Vogar Eol" instead of "Vogar"?
Author:  Cassia [ Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
Okay, was just reading over the new crafting system and well since I'm pretty much retired it doesn't effect me much. But it appears that the new crafting system is set up just like EVERQUEST. I have played Everquest and like their crafting system. However, maybe refining the system a bit more to fit the text based would be a greater idea then trying to make it more complicated. *shrug* honestly I don't care how the crafting system comes out but what about all the hours that people have already invest in crafting? Are they going to be compensated for their time and effort? Is anyone really going to want to spend that much time on the new system when there is a new mud coming out? Honestly, I would have a hard time putting all that time and effort into something that might be gone when the new mud arises. I'm just thinking of all the people who have crafting at 100% and have risen to extreme high levels. How is this new patch going to honestly affect their position in the game. Well just a thought, but it sounds like that the crafting system is being based on something that is already done. . .
Author:  Celeborn [ Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:44 am ]
Post subject: 
Cassia wrote:
Okay, was just reading over the new crafting system and well since I'm pretty much retired it doesn't effect me much. But it appears that the new crafting system is set up just like EVERQUEST.


Everquest II? I only played everquest I but I never noticed any crafts (got a bit sick of whacking animals up to high levels. Sort of like UO, which really didn't have a melee-point to it other than pvp :P).

Anyway, what the system compares to doesn't matter that much. I am designing it for a text environment. I personally think it will be easyer and a lot less 'chore-like' to use.

Cassia wrote:
*shrug* honestly I don't care how the crafting system comes out but what about all the hours that people have already invest in crafting? Are they going to be compensated for their time and effort?


Yes. One, they can craft things based on their craft level, without having to retry. Two, their percentages are converted in such a way they can craft any levels they could before and a bit more, and three, they receive a full craft codex filled with recipies which replace their old options.

Notably the underdog crafters (statue, tool crafters) will be getting a broader range of things to craft.

Cassia wrote:
Is anyone really going to want to spend that much time on the new system when there is a new mud coming out?


As you might have noticed, i'm putting all my time in DL. I'm in a bit of an unstable RL work situation and feel its better to deliver small bits of code instead of coding on a huge project that might be destroyed if my work bubble bursts. Its still scheduled for 'better times' though :)
Author:  Vogar Eol [ Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
Just currious...

Since your current job is unstable, how much would it take to hire you as a mud coder slave? We could just wire your brain directly to a mainframe...



Image
Author:  weems [ Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Question for you Celeborn:

What determines what class a crafted item is in, in terms of common, rare, extremely rare, artifact, etc?
Author:  Isabelle [ Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:00 am ]
Post subject: 
i can answer that, it is determined by the number of enchantments on the item, and the types of enchantments (+ special effects)

I believe he posted something regarding that in one of his first posts

But if he didnt, this is how it will be done

(i will be spending time fixing up items so that there wont be any obvious imbalances) (most areas i have spent time on in the last 4 weeks correcting level ranges, have also had their items tweaked)
Author:  weems [ Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:15 am ]
Post subject: 
Isabelle wrote:
i can answer that, it is determined by the number of enchantments on the item, and the types of enchantments (+ special effects)

I believe he posted something regarding that in one of his first posts

But if he didnt, this is how it will be done

(i will be spending time fixing up items so that there wont be any obvious imbalances) (most areas i have spent time on in the last 4 weeks correcting level ranges, have also had their items tweaked)


That doesnt answer my question in the least. In that context, what would determine the number of enchantments?! You see my question now? I want to know how the overall 'value' of a crafted item will be determined.
Author:  Arureal [ Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:21 am ]
Post subject:  A few thoughts
A few questions about the new blueprint system.

First, What about items for which there is no current crafting slot? For example, belts, a very common item yet there is not a crafting slot for items worn on the waist, or the face for that matter. How do we determine skill level in crafting these items?

Second, Let us say you have the blueprint for the sword Claymore level 6 but you are level 12, can you make a Claymore at level 12 or only at the level of the blueprint?

Third, If items can be made different levels than the blue print, should we impose limits as to how far from the blue print we can diverge in level requirements. Example: 5 time above and/or 0.5 times below listed level giving the above Claymore a range from level 30 to level 3.

Well that’s enough for now.
Author:  Arureal [ Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:27 am ]
Post subject:  Hope this helps Weems
On the last couple of posts before my post above.

Weems said
Question for you Celeborn:

What determines what class a crafted item is in, in terms of common, rare, extremely rare, artifact, etc?

Isabelle said
i can answer that, it is determined by the number of enchantments on the item, and the types of enchantments (+ special effects)

I believe he posted something regarding that in one of his first posts

But if he didnt, this is how it will be done

Weems said
That doesnt answer my question in the least. In that context, what would determine the number of enchantments?! You see my question now? I want to know how the overall 'value' of a crafted item will be determined.


Isabelle answered your first question the way it was asked, because I was going to ask the same question, and her response answered what I wanted to know. A common item has none or 1 minor enchantment as found and blue-printed. An uncommon item may have 1 to 3 enchantments. A rare have 2 to 6 and an artifact any amount, all depending on how powerful the enchantments are. I am not sure what you wish to know, but let me explain how I see this system working.

Celeborn said
On enchantments:
- Enchantments are used by an enchanter to enchant an item.
- Enchantments can contain more than one effect:
(Example Level 1 Enchantment: 'Power of the Orkieporkie', +2 STR, +5 HP, -50 MANA)

On item enchant space:
- Items are limited in their number of enchantments allowed.
(remember, each enchantment may contain more than 1 effect)
- Common, Uncommon items allow 2 enchantments
- Rare, Extremely rare items allow 3 enchantments.
- Artifact items allow 4 enchantments.
- Item enchantments can be replaced.
- The enchantment must be equal or lower level than the object
being enchanted.


Let’s make a common helmet, level 1, that has a minor enchantment like +5 hit points.
Because it is a crafted common item, it has 2 enchantment slots to be filled. Your common helmet is now much more useful when you add 2 first level 'Power of the Orkieporkie' enchantments . Look at Celeborn’s thread Economy Craft Changes – Some Illustrations and check out the flowcharts there. http://forums.dark-legacy.com/viewtopic.php?t=611 Hope this helped.
Author:  Isabelle [ Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
yup, Arureal is correct, it has to do with the number of enchantments

if you are talking about ingame items (non crafted) then see my response. If you are asking about crafted items, well, they won't be called artifact or rare, etc, they will simply be crafted.

Blueprints will be available with (sometimes) more than one enchantment on them, allowing you to enchant an item to hold X # of enchantments at once.
Author:  weems [ Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
No. The question was not answered. I don't see it as "lets make a common helmet."

I want to know what it is in a crafted item that determines the number of enchantments it gets, or its value, or whatever. Is it the level? The material? The quality? (normal, high quality, or masterwork).

A combination of the three? Are some of those taken into account more than others?
Author:  weems [ Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
I assume Celeborn has some sort of formula in the works, where it takes into account certain parts of the crafted item, and turns them into a numerical value. It then uses this numerical value to determine the 'rarity' of the item, and therefore how many enchants it can hold. Etc.

I just want to know what determines it, thats all.

If the question was answered in the thread already, it wouldn't have been asked.
Author:  Arureal [ Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Weems said
I want to know what it is in a crafted item that determines the number of enchantments it gets, or its value, or whatever. Is it the level? The material? The quality? (normal, high quality, or masterwork).


It is a pretty strait-forward system. All mob items will be given a class, common, uncommon, rare, etc, based on the number and power of the enchantments on the item AS FOUND. The class, common, uncommon, etc, determines the number of enchantment slots the item has WHEN CRAFTED. The LEVEL of the item determines how powerful of an enchantment can be put in the slots available. The material has the same effect as it would have if you re-forged a mob item, better DR, more damage, but there is no e-space for it to affect.

Let’s use Sidewinder Armlets and assume they are a rare item due to the number of enchantments the item has. You make a blueprint from one, now you can craft Sidewinder Armlets that have 3 enchantment slots. Now you salvage the enchantments from 3 other Sidewinder Armlets and place them into the one you made. Or you could use any enchantments that came from an item of the same or lower level. Making the Sidewinder Armlets out of mithrill instead of bronze will give it better damage reduction and make the item lighter. A simple yet elegant system that encourages crafting, exploring, and making use of the many mob items we have. I can not think of anything else to add, hope this explanation was of more use to you.
Author:  weems [ Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm talking about crafted items. You are misunderstanding me Arureal, and you cannot answer my question. Only Celeborn can.
Author:  weems [ Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
So I ask again, hah...What determines the value of a crafted item in the new system, and how many enchants it gets, or what its rarity will it be?
Author:  Celeborn [ Sun Apr 17, 2005 12:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
weems wrote:
Question for you Celeborn:

What determines what class a crafted item is in, in terms of common, rare, extremely rare, artifact, etc?


Just to clarify something, NPC items and Crafted items are the same thing. So the same classification rules apply.

Simplified, the system takes into account level, base material and its innate enchantments to determine its item class. Any additional enchantments or material upgrades do not increase item class, though they do affect its value.

Also, there are some exceptions. Some items will be classified by their rarity (think black pearls / white pearls). There's a whole bunch of items with their own custom classification rules. :)
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