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 Post subject: Economy Changes - Objects, Crafts and Gold {DRAFT, REV 2}
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:50 am 
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See below for my notes on fixing the economy. Most of the coinage bits are already coded and is being finetuned, all the proposed craft changes havent been implemented yet. Don't go beserk just yet, i'm inviting you guys to rationally discuss these changes. ;) I wont be dunking them in tomorrow.

---- REVISION 2

Fixing the broken Economy:

A MUD is based mainly on a functioning economy. DL's economy, isn't. People are either very rich or very poor. Prices are erratic, making money a hard thing to spend. A huge hoard of objects and gold is kept inside the player economy, and never spent. Mining hasn't helped. (sorry! :P)

Goals:
- Draining gold from the economy, by balancing prices and implementing new things to buy.
- Draining objects out of the economy, without forcing players to loose their favorite objects due to deathtraps, corpse loss or item damage.
- Allowing people to keep their wealth. (no people suddenly becoming 'poor' because of this patch).
- Introduce coins of value.
- Adjust object prices.
- Balance Crafting fairly for crafters.

Items split into types:

Abundant: Pops all the time, easy obtainable, low value
Common: Pops less, but is still encountered a lot. mediocre value
Rare: Pops rarely, high value.
Extremely Rare: Pops very rarely, very valuable
Artifact: Possibly only one of each in existance, extremely valuable.

New coinage:

1 white shard = 100 emeralite coins
1 emeralite coin = 100 adamantium coins
1 adamantium coin = 100 platinum coins
1 platinum coin = 100 gold coins
1 gold coin = 100 silver coins
1 silver coin = 100 copper coins
1 copper coin = 10 copper bits
Note: Resources are not equal to coins, there is no relation between ingot price and coin value

See below for a description:
'obtainable by' describes who will be able to obtain this coinage with considerable effort. So for example, level 30 players will generally be able to collect several gold coins with considerable effort.
'abundant item price' describes at which level abundant items will start to cost the coinage type.
'buys' gives an idea what the coinage is worth.

Copper Bits:
obtainable by: Beggars
abundant item price for: lvl 1+ items
Buys:
- 5 bits - a ripped shirt
- 5 bits - components for 1+ complexity spell prism.
- 5 bits - learn a level 1 skill.
Commonly dropped by:
- Level 1+ mobs
- Mining treasure chest: Underground depth 1
- Sacrificing copper+ priced items
Rarely dropped by:

Copper Coins:
obtainable by: Lower-class commoners, lvl 1+ players
abundant item price for: lvl 2+ items
Buys:
- 10 copper - a common cloth shirt
- 1 copper - Stable level 1+ pet
- 1 copper - place item in shop identify price (merchant pact)
- 5 copper - components for 5+ complexity spell prism.
- 10 copper - components for 10+ complexity spell prism.
- 1 copper - Learn a level 5+ skill
- 10 copper - Learn a level 10+ skill
Commonly dropped by:
- Level 5+ mobs
- Level 1+ boss mobs
- Mining treasure chest: Underground depth 5-7
- Sacrificing silver+ priced items
Rarely dropped by:
- Level 1+ mobs
- Mining treasure chest: Underground depth 1-4

Silver Coins:
obtainable by: Middle-class commoners, lvl 10/15+ players
abundant item price for: lvl 10/15+ items
Buys:
- 5 silver - a slightly magical cloth shirt
- 1 silver - Stable level 25+ pet
- 1 silver - Set structure friend
- 5 silver - claim one mining patch
- 1 silver - components for 15+ complexity spell prism.
- 25 silver - components for 20+ complexity spell prism.
- 50 silver - components for 25+ complexity spell prism.
- 1 silver - Learn a level 15+ skill
- 25 silver - Learn a level 20+ skill
- 50 silver - Learn a level 25+ skill
Commonly dropped by:
- Level 25+ mobs
- Level 10+ boss mobs
- Mining treasure chest: Underground depth 8
- Sacrificing gold+ priced items
Rarely dropped by:
- Level 10+ mobs
- Level 5+ boss mobs
- Mining treasure chest: Underground depth 5-7

Gold Coins:
obtainable by: Upper-class commoners, lvl 25/30+ players
abundant item price for: lvl 25/30+ items
Buys:
- good quality items, A magical embroidered silk shirt
- 1 gold - Add family member
- 1 gold - Stable level 50+ pet
- 1 gold - Set structure owner or guild-friend
- 1 gold - components for 30+ complexity spell prism.
- 50 gold - components for 40+ complexity spell prism.
- 1 gold - Learn a level 30+ skill
- 25 gold - Learn a level 35+ skill
- 50 gold - Learn a level 40+ skill
- 75 gold - Learn a level 45+ skill
Commonly dropped by:
- Level 50+ boss mobs
Rarely dropped by:
- Level 50+ mobs
- Level 25+ boss mobs
- Mining treasure chest: Underground depth 8

Platinum Coins:
obtainable by: Lords, lvl 50+/epic players
abundant item price for: lvl 50+/epic items
Buys:
- high quality items, A highly magical embroidered silk shirt
- 1 Platinum - A family name (after completing quest)
- 10 Platinum - A shop
- 1 Platinum - Engrave one item
- 5 Platinum - Increase structure size by 1.
- 1 Platinum - Learn a level 50+ skill
- 20 Platinum - Player Cottage (Max 2 rooms)
- 45 Platinum - Player Residence (Max 5 rooms)
- 90 Platinum - Player Mansion (Max 10 rooms)
Commonly dropped by:
- nothing!
Rarely dropped by:
- Level 50+ boss mobs

Adamantium Coins:
obtainable by: Kings, Guildmasters, persistant epic players
Buys:
- 10 Adamantium - A guild
- 40 Adamantium - Player Castle (Max 20 rooms)
Commonly dropped by:
- nothing!
Rarely dropped by:
- nothing!

Emeralite Coins:
obtainable by: Large countries, insanely persistant epic players
Buys:
- 1 Emeralite - Player Citadel (Max 40 rooms)
Commonly dropped by:
- nothing!
Rarely dropped by:
- nothing!

White Shard:
obtainable by: Deities, RL lacking epic players
Buys: Practically anything.
Commonly dropped by:
- nothing!
Rarely dropped by:
- nothing!

Specials:
- Treasure map chests: Drop coins equal to an equal level Boss mob.
- Monster pop-chests: Drops 4 times the normal amount of coins for that monster.
- Quest reward: Rewards 4 times the normal amount of coins for an equal level monster.
- Repairing: Repairing a fully damaged item costs 1/10th of the full item value, but never more than 1 gold.

Item classes:

- Abundant: normal price (see below)
- Common: price * 10 (1 Platinum->10 Platinum)
- Rare: one coin type higher (1 Platinum->1 Adamantium)
- Extremely Rare: two coin types higher (1 Platinum->1 Emeralite)
- Artifact: three coin types higher (1 Platinum->1 White Shard)

Old gold conversion:

No decision yet, but we are going to use the richest players as a base. Players are considered to have a small fortune above 1 million and have a big fortune above 10+ million.

1 Emeralite is comparable to a big fortune, 1 Adamantium to a small fortune.

10.000.000 = 1 Emeralite
1.000.000 = 1 Adamantium
100.000 = 1 Platinum
10.000 = 1 Gold
1.000 = 1 Silver
100 = 10 copper
10 = 1 copper
1 = 1 copper bit

Item binding:

Common to Rare class Items bind to the player on equipping, making them unusuable by others. This prevents poluting the player economy with old items, while still allowing people to gift items to others. Quest rewards, Extremely Rare and Artifact items bind when they are touched.

Selling items:

Since object prices will be re-adjusted (which generally means a sharp rise in value), object sell values will be adjusted. Depending on your charisma, objects sell from 5% to 10% of their full price.
Note that NPC's will never pay more than 1 platinum for any item, whatever the worth.

Crafting and the Economy:
A hard egg to crack. Enchanting sits at the core of our problem. Stacking enchantments has absolutely ruined gameplay, with the low cost for high level enchantments (just enchant a low level item ten times). Combine that with the over the top quality of crafted gear there is no reason to even wear game equipment. I have got some ideas, but I do not want to drive any established players away from the game, so they need to be reviewed. Leather and bone armor has no use, and I think foraging is just a tad silly for its fixed list of items to forage.

Generic Crafting changes:
- Allow crafting of ANY Abundant and Common class items that are available in game.
- Players can buy or quest for the recipies required for item crafting. They can reverse-engineer Abundant and Common items that are easy for them to craft anyway.
- When a player is skilled enough to craft an item, and pays the resources for them, he will always succeed.
- All crafting items require 50% of the objects normal price in coins, the rest is supplied by resources, and possibly, quested or looted reagents.
- Creating Rare and Extremely Rare pops that can be combined with the rarer resources into Rare and Extremely Rare crafted equipment. Since a rare craft-component pop comes in place of a normal rare object pop, this is a fair exchange and doesn't pollute the player economy, while still giving crafters the ability to make 'Uber' items.
- Item resource type is defined by its original recipy.

Reforging:
- Reforging is removed. Instead, people can use their crafts to perform 'Upgrade' and 'Salvage'.

Upgrading:
- Upgrading costs 400% of the items value in coins, and two times the normal crafting resources. (but not additional reagents).
- Materials are split into levels. You can only upgrade an item from its original material to a material one level higher (copper->bronze).

Salvaging:
- Depending on the item salvaged, may jields one (or more) of its original resource type.

Enchanting changes:
- An enchanter requires enchanting tokens to enchant an object. These tokens must be of equal or greater level of the item needed to enchant.
- An enchanter can gather enchanting tokens of a certain level by destroying items of that level.
- Depending on the item class, an item may jield anywere between one or five tokens.
- An enchantment can be selected from a list, each priced at a certain amount of tokens.
- Like Rare and Extremely Rare pops for common crafts, special enchantment tokens can be found that allow special enchantments. All 'uber power' enchantments will be put under this list.
- Enchanting a new enchantment costs 10% of the items value in coins.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:36 pm 
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Celeborn, will you have my children?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:43 pm 
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weems wrote:
Celeborn, will you have my children?


Could you stop saying that, your freeking me out :P


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:48 pm 
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Okay, now for my real post.

The only thing that worries me is this:
- Upgrading costs 400% of the items value in coins, and two times the normal crafting resources. (but not additional reagents).

Just make sure they can't upgrade into emeralite eh?

Hehe, I really like pretty much every part of this though. It's very bold. I will definetly stick around on DL to see how it works out, and give you as much constructive criticism as I can. Do you mind if we brainstorm more ideas for useful things that can be added in that can be bought with the new currencies?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:48 pm 
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Celeborn wrote:
weems wrote:
Celeborn, will you have my children?


Could you stop saying that, your freeking me out :P


Actually this is the first time I have said it. You are thinking of Quintos :D


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:55 pm 
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weems wrote:
Okay, now for my real post.

The only thing that worries me is this:
- Upgrading costs 400% of the items value in coins, and two times the normal crafting resources. (but not additional reagents).

Just make sure they can't upgrade into emeralite eh?


I might have stated that incorrectly. You do need two times the normally required resources (so an item that costs 50 meteorite to make, would cost 100 emeralite to upgrade), but you wont need any special recipy reagents to make that item, that you would need otherwise.

Quote:
Hehe, I really like pretty much every part of this though. It's very bold. I will definetly stick around on DL to see how it works out, and give you as much constructive criticism as I can. Do you mind if we brainstorm more ideas for useful things that can be added in that can be bought with the new currencies?


I'm particulary looking for really insanely expensive things to serve players with, like 10 emeralite for a special race label. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:16 pm 
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On people who are considering reforging/crafting/enchanting and want to know when to do it (pre-aft patch):

My suggestion is, wait until I open up codeport for testing. You'll be able to try out the new crafts/economy on there for about a week, thus having plenty of time to reforge/craft/enchant pre-patch.

During that period I will be announcing what items will fall under what item class, so you can distribute bind-on-touch items amongst your friends/shops/whatever before they bind. Also, during that time you might want to empty your shops and citadels of items, since values will shift considerably. I will give plenty of warnings about this.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:21 pm 
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75 Emeralite coins: Add one socket to a crafted item. So if the crafted item had 3 sockets before, it can now have four.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:13 pm 
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it's important to keep something in mind here..

asking for things like adding extra infinite sockets will eventually result in sockets/runes being made much less powerful.

right now, sockets are powerful, and in my estimation should remain that way. Leaving sockets as a random byproduct of a critically successful build is something i consider a good idea.


ideas for the setbody/epicbuy upgrade might be like

2 white shards - choice of one race in a predefined list of race names, separated by categories - dragon, griffin, slime, undead, giant

1 white shard - customizing your pet - purchasing a rare pet


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:15 pm 
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Uh Isabelle...Do you have any idea how expensive 75 Emeralite coins is?

If it ever gets to the point where you can afford 'infinite sockets', then the entire system is already broken ANYWAY.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:54 pm 
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The different coin types look cool. I've always preferred systems like that, with various types of coins instead of just gold, and it gives the game a more medieval feel. Depending on how the system works, you might want to take some precaution to ensure that high-level coins can't be sacced by accident(I've lost quite a few valuable items already to the new inventory system...I'd hate to sacrifice a coin worth 10 mil because of it)

I think that items binding is a bad idea, both in concept(I touched this item, now you magically can't use it!) and in effect. In a game where you pretty much have to have a bunch of characters, and players commonly make "new" main characters, eq should be transferrable(not only for that reason, of course). Also, does this mean that crafted eq will bind? I find that to be a horrible idea. If you consider an item too powerful to be used by everyone, give it a high level requirement; don't set a magical flag preventing all but one person from using it that can NEVER be bypassed by any means(with a few exceptions, but once you've put a lot of glory in an item, further enchanting it is risky, and changing the binding on an item is probably considered a bug). As for preventing a flood of "old" items polluting the game...don't implement a long-term problem like binding to fix a short-term problem. You could, instead, temporarily give players the ability to salvage items for more resources than they will normally get, or something of that nature.

By "stacking enchantments", I assume you mean enchanting the same property repeatedly(1 damage roll, .5 ar, etc). I don't see how this has ruined gameplay. Could you clarify on that, please?

I think making it harder to upgrade items is good. From what I understood, players will only be able to forge items from low-quality materials, then will have to upgrade the item through every higher material until they reach the one they want, and pay a lot of coins to do so. That sounds like a good idea to me.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:55 pm 
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my message was directed at anyone who is going to possibly post things like 'lets spend x emeralite for extra limbs, and extra attacks per round, or, lets spend x emeralite to do something equally disruptive to balance.


if a bug occurs, and people /do/ manage to get 75 emeralite easily, i'm sure you would agree with me, anything existing that could imbalance the game, should not be there.

have infinite sockets i consider imbalance, i believe you and i share a common belief of retaining balance at all costs. I'm only giving you a scenario in which having such an ability anywhere in game, could potentially be disruptive.

The idea here, is that eventually, regardless of what you do, or have, there will always be a balance.

And while large sums of money will make life easier for the player, and stronger, they will never reach a state where they are 'untouchable' to players, or monsters at an equal level to them.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:59 pm 
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binding will not always be a 'you touch it, now you cant use it'

binding will be more like this:

you wear a magical item - its bound to you forever, you may destroy it for its materials, or scrap it, or sell it to an npc shop

you complete a quest - the reward is bound to you instantly, no picking up an item from a corpse, no potential ability to cheat and sell the item to someone else. You do the quest, you get the reward, period.

touching items will not make them bind to you, as enchanters and crafters would then be out of business :)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:01 pm 
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I don't think it's such a good idea to implement things with the idea that there will be a bug that causes everybody to get 93792057409235790 of every coin.

Unless everything expensive is purely cosmetic, theres no way to avoid players getting an advantage from exploiting bugs and imbalances. And purely cosmetic things aren't even worth working for. They are *BORING*. The best way to keep an eye on this kind of thing is to be attentive, set rules, and /CRACK DOWN/. People on this mud get away with ANYTHING. It's simply incredible. So much exploitation.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:01 pm 
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I don't think he meant "infinite sockets". I think you should be able to add sockets, up to the maximum(or maybe one less) that the item could normally have popped. Obviously, this should be expensive.

As for "keeping balance at all costs"...no. Which do you think has more players, a fun game or a balanced game? Balance is important, but is secondary to the fun of the game. It's a game, there to let people have fun; don't let the mechanics of the game let you lose site of its purpose.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:03 pm 
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as for enchants on items, ignore everything you know about the combat up to this point.

It will work out to be a fair fight, we will see to it.


One thing to keep in mind as well, by changing enchantments significantly, it also opens up the door to make class specific skills/abilities more powerful. So abilities you once considered to be pretty much useless, but potentially cool in theory, can now be that way


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:06 pm 
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Isabelle wrote:
And while large sums of money will make life easier for the player, and stronger, they will never reach a state where they are 'untouchable' to players, or monsters at an equal level to them.


I DO agree without about maintaining balance at all costs...But this one is unacceptable to me. In every game I have ever played, if you are rich enough and powerful enough, monsters of your level can no longer touch you. Thats the whole point of getting strong, moving BEYOND what you are normally capable of.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:07 pm 
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I agree with Weems 100% on that. That's the point of becoming powerful.

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It's just that the problem these days is that its *EASY* to get strong enough to go beyond what you are normally capable of. Heck, you could even argue that people are NORMALLY CAPABLE of taking on things HIGHER than your level.

So I guess I do agree with you, just as long as a character can scale up beyond their level, I'm happy. I have no problems with it taking work.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:12 pm 
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"binding will not always be a 'you touch it, now you cant use it'

binding will be more like this:

you wear a magical item - its bound to you forever, you may destroy it for its materials, or scrap it, or sell it to an npc shop

you complete a quest - the reward is bound to you instantly, no picking up an item from a corpse, no potential ability to cheat and sell the item to someone else. You do the quest, you get the reward, period.

touching items will not make them bind to you, as enchanters and crafters would then be out of business :)"

Touch it/Wear it, same thing. Binding is a bad idea. What is the point of every item in the game only being usable by one person? It's annoying, it makes items worthless once you've put them on, and it's unrealistic. It's fine for quest items; you did a quest and the "gods" granted you a special reward that only you can use. That's fine. However, every sword you buy shouldn't magically become inescapably bound to you and never be usable by anyone else again.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:19 pm 
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its ok, i think we're on the same wavelength, its just a matter of explaining it properly to show you what we have planned.

or rather, showing you will be the easiest way.


you will be able to be powerful, BUT, we will try to ensure there is no one way for it to be abused to a point where gameplay becomes imbalanced.


It's the idea, where sure, having a bajillion gold, will make you stronger than another player at a similar class and level to you, but not to the point where you are WAY more powerful than them.

So, fighting knowledge, luck, other variables could/might still spell the downfall of a seriously equipped/powerful player.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:24 pm 
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it makes crafters much more in demand

you can still sell, salvage for components bound items you no longer need

It's just a different idea than we have had, once players get used to it, it will be a painless change.

I'm not sure if celeborn mentioned it in his note, but we will also be making NPC shops that sell weapons and amour more common/important. So players will never have to worry about not having appropriate gear to fight in. That will never be a problem (if thats what your concern is)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:29 pm 
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Nuitari wrote:
"binding will not always be a 'you touch it, now you cant use it'

binding will be more like this:

you wear a magical item - its bound to you forever, you may destroy it for its materials, or scrap it, or sell it to an npc shop

you complete a quest - the reward is bound to you instantly, no picking up an item from a corpse, no potential ability to cheat and sell the item to someone else. You do the quest, you get the reward, period.

touching items will not make them bind to you, as enchanters and crafters would then be out of business :)"

Touch it/Wear it, same thing. Binding is a bad idea. What is the point of every item in the game only being usable by one person? It's annoying, it makes items worthless once you've put them on, and it's unrealistic. It's fine for quest items; you did a quest and the "gods" granted you a special reward that only you can use. That's fine. However, every sword you buy shouldn't magically become inescapably bound to you and never be usable by anyone else again.


Realism is not my goal. A good gaming experience is. Let me clarify the difference on both types of binding, and my reasons behind them:

Bind-on-touch (yes, this also includes all fill/empty/stand on one leg while hopping tricks) ;) This is for quest items, and certain boss-mob items. Items like hat we think players should have at least participated in getting by themselves.

Bind-on-wear means you can either make a player-profit of it, OR you can wear it. All items bind-on-wear, except abundant and common items, as their economy pollution is minimal. Other used gear will no longer be re-introduced into the system, keeping the object economy healthy. I have seen it work perfectly, and it seems to me to be a preferred alternative to corpse loss/deathtraps/eq destruction.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:55 pm 
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That doesn't make for a "good gaming experience". Quite the opposite, in fact.

Making everything bind is far worse than having deathtraps purge eq. You can avoid deathtraps by being careful, there's no such way to mitigate binding.

If you are worried about items "flooding the market", then your problem is that you have made them easier to get than you intended. Making everything bind won't fix that.

I'm probably not conveying my point properly, I find it difficult to express how incredibly bad I find the idea of making everything bind without being insulting and offensive, which I have no desire to be. Under no circumstances should non-quest crafted equipment be made to bind. It is one of those "solutions" that will create more problems than it fixes.

If you disagree with me, then stop doing what you are doing, and spend a thousand or so hours playing DL. Take the time to triav. Then spend a few hundred hours getting some emeralite from Vogar or some other player who actually sells it. Now make yourself some level 50 emeralite weapons with that emeralite. Then spend hundreds of hours epicing to epic level 500. Guess what? Now you get to turn those weapons that represent hundreds of hours of your time into 1 emeralite ingot! Too bad you can't give them to one of your other level 50 characters, since they're magically bound to you and can't ever be used by anyone else, huh? (think that's improbable? I'm going to have that EXACT problem when you make everything bind)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 5:31 pm 
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Crafted items should, if they will eb affected by this bind rule, only bind on wear, because lets face it, if its bind on touch, then everything the crafter makes only he will be able to use.

I dont see this being beneficial to crafters though, this bind rule. Kind of more a pain, but do what you must.

About item socketing, how about making it so we can increase the amount of sockets on the item by no more than 2 than it's original, or that we can define(within reasonable limits) the amount of sockets the item will have while being crafted. The more sockets you ask for, the more of a chance of ruining the item, because when you gauge holes into something, you are more bound to screw up the item.

Or have socketing a seperate craft altogether, where the person sockets the item and can place a set value of sockets, or lower than the maximum, and being able to fill sockets would be nice to have as well...

Now, on a side note of that, I think this is a good idea, but how about implinting the ability to smelt ingots into coins? :D you could set a time-limitation on the amount, like only permitted to smelt 10 coins per IRL month, and have it be against the law to smelt more of that, if you do then you have a % chance of someone telling the JC, and being jailed.

I dont even know, im just throwing ideas out there, because if the set up is gonna be like this, i can see myself becoming porrer and poorer as it is.


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