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Official racepatch public testing discussion thread
http://forums.dark-legacy.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1183		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Celeborn [ Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Official racepatch public testing discussion thread
Post any bugs, questions and remarks relating to the public testing of races, starsigns and ancestries here! I'm keeping a close eye on this thread.

(visit http://testing.dark-legacy.com for more information)
Author:  Celeborn [ Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
Q. I cant use COMBINE on testing.dark-legacy.com!

A. This is on purpose: It is to prevent people from trying to find runeword combinations.
Author:  Chilliwack [ Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
you can still use spell add <rune> <prism/idol> though
Author:  lingolas [ Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
we need some general help files for new common commands.
here are some commone ones:

changing forms: cast "howl"
change back to orginal form: cast 'dispel"
activate starsign: ?
Author:  lingolas [ Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
as a Lich race is changed to skeleton orc, does that Lich still get orc's bonuses?
Author:  Kiasyn [ Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
lingolas wrote:
changing forms: cast "howl"
change back to orginal form: cast 'dispel"
activate starsign: ?


IIRC you can change back to original form with unmorph.
Author:  Quintos [ Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
Perhaps you should allow us to be set to e1000 so that we can test the forms for dragons and elementals?
Author:  Nuitari [ Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Don't worry, I'll be testing those for you tonight ;)
Author:  Jerardo [ Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Dwarf's cannonball only works at the start of combat on non-automatically hostile npcs (ie you can't already be in combat to use this). This is a huge disadvantage because most npcs are hostile ('red', all of epics) and also at a disadvantage when in partying (meaning you have to make the first move on non-red targets).

For those that haven't tried cannonball, it's basically 2 thrust(in 1 move) at the beginning of battle, similarly to a 'spin'(except spin is able to work while in combat).

A possible change would to make cannonball on dwarf's timer of 1 use per 15 seconds and able to use while in combat.
Author:  Quintos [ Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
Jerardo wrote:
Dwarf's cannonball only works at the start of combat on non-automatically hostile npcs (ie you can't already be in combat to use this). This is a huge disadvantage because most npcs are hostile ('red', all of epics) and also at a disadvantage when in partying (meaning you have to make the first move on non-red targets).

For those that haven't tried cannonball, it's basically 2 thrust(in 1 move) at the beginning of battle, similarly to a 'spin'(except spin is able to work while in combat).

A possible change would to make cannonball on dwarf's timer of 1 use per 15 seconds and able to use while in combat.
Cannonball also has the bonus of acting as a couple of rushes at the same time. This means that it's meant mainly as an opening move against ranged fighters.
Author:  Jerardo [ Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:06 am ]
Post subject: 
Dragon's innate spell 'breath' seems to scale at level 50, meaning no additional boost for epic levels. Not sure if this is intended.
Author:  Nuitari [ Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
The starsign "The Knight" does not have any noticable effect on my balance. I am using a +25 balance inner peace, Autumn's Balancing Embrace III, and I have 50% equilibrium.

I have tried attacking on both the testport and the mainport at the same time, with The Knight on the testport and obviously without it on the mainport. I lost the same amount of balance per attack.

Isabelle told me that this is due to some huge, undocumented combat changes on the testport and that The Knight was actually helping me a lot if it gave me the same balance I had on the mainport, so I tried using a different starsign and checking my balance. There was no noticable difference between my balance with The Knight and any other starsign.

Either The Knight doesn't affect balance, it doesn't stack properly with some other balance-boosting effect, or the bonus is negligible.

If it /is/ working as intended, it needs a major boost in the balance bonus.
Author:  Isabelle [ Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
i tested it with some random starsign, versus the knight, and there was a very noticeable advantage

first, with the knight character, i was using less balance per hit, and recovering (seemingly) alot faster than the other.

lunges were taking away like 2 stars on the knight, and like 4 on the other.

i don't want the knight starsign being immune to balance, i think that would be very imbalanced :)

but it definitely appears to be giving the 15% balance that it says it gives.

i'll try to test it with all the things you mentioned in your note, and try to give it another shot.
Author:  Nuitari [ Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
That's odd, considering Celeborn said that it's slower balance drain, not faster balance recovery.

Also, two stars instead of four = 50%; The Knight is only 15%.

IF you are actually getting the effects you describe, it's probably not The Knight that's causing them, unless it's not working properly.
Author:  Isabelle [ Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
i did it with adding the race of lizardman and the embrace III, (and knight) and i did nothing but lunges an entire fight, spammed lunge for a couple minutes, then slowed down as it eventually started reaching imbalance.

it still looks great so far, ill try to make a warrior cleric to test out the inner peace thing.
Author:  Chilliwack [ Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
maybe there is a balance cap so youre not seeing a difference, donno
Author:  Alexiel [ Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:51 am ]
Post subject: 
erm... well... this is just a suggestion on the stat rerolling that appears when you "rebirth" your chara on the test port.

Could you make the stat rerolling as the base stats? because otherwise it's rather confusing, as the stats which are being rerolled is at your level, excluding equipment affects... as at tri-av (or epic 59 in Alexiel's case) the numbers get kinda big and i'm just kinda going @____@ what????? 'cuz it's kinda hard to tell whether the stats which are being rolled are good? :P something like that.
Author:  Jerardo [ Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
I tested the balance of knight and it works for me. I get 1 extra lunge/spin. This test was done on a combat machine with innerpeace, equil, and gaunt of dex.

Without knight, I get 7 lunge(7 spins too), 8th time=fall.

With knight, I get 8 lunge(8 spins), 9th time=fall.
Author:  Quintos [ Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
Jerardo wrote:
I tested the balance of knight and it works for me. I get 1 extra lunge/spin. This test was done on a combat machine with innerpeace, equil, and gaunt of dex.

Without knight, I get 7 lunge(7 spins too), 8th time=fall.

With knight, I get 8 lunge(8 spins), 9th time=fall.
How many times did you do this test? If it was only once for each, this is nothing conclusive. If it happened 100 times, you have something.
Author:  Jerardo [ Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
About 5 times of each. A friend(Veld) also told me he did the same test and gotten the same results. I did the same test just now and resulted: with knight=8 spins, w/o knight =7 spins. The speed was was 38.

However... with 82 speed as a knight, I can only spin 6 times, 7th=fall. Without knight, it's also 6 spins, 7th=fall.

My 2 conclusions:
1. speed makes a huge factor, if one where to have high speed, the 15% extra blance would be very hard to notice

2. spin was nerfed sometime and takes more balance now, as normally I can spin 7 times(with all possible balance bonus) with 100 speed before.
Author:  weems [ Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
To clear some things up:

Equilibrium:
Heavy armor and weapons used in a warriors combat training give them
exceptional skill in finding their equilibrium more quickly.

Warriors trained in this skill regain their balance with greater speed.


That is quoting the help files. This explains why Jerardo gets more consecutive spins with a slower speed, because it gives him more time for his balance to regenerate in between spins. When your speed is very fast, the speed at which your balance regenerates will make no difference. Only after you have stopped spinning, will it kick in.

If you want to test this, I suppose you will have to completely drain your balance pool, then take a stopwatch and time how long it takes for it to completley fill back up, with and without the Knight starsign.
Author:  Isabelle [ Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
well, each time i do it, i still come up with the same result of seeing a cool bonus with having knight

so, if my methods are flawed, those here who are posting and saying that knight doesnt work should logon to testing.dark-legacy.com and show me.

(please)

let's do it now before the patch goes live
Author:  Nuitari [ Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
So The Knight seems to be working properly, but its bonus is pitifully weak at high levels.

How about this:

Solution A)

Leave it as it is, but add

+15% balance(level 50)

Solution B)

Leave the reduced balance drain as it is and add

+5% bonus to equilibrium(level 10)
+5% bonus to equilibrium(level 20)
+5% bonus to equilibrium(level 30)
+5% bonus to equilibrium(level40)
+5% bonus to equilibrium(level50)
+5% bonus to equilibrium/100 epic levels up to e500(for a total of 99% equilibrium skill for warriors and 50% for non-warriors)

This would help it scale better with epic level and make it useful to higher-level characters, without giving infinite balance or giving low-level characters too much balance. As it works now, it's slower balance drain, but the bonuses on top of that would be balance regeneration, which are less significant and don't stack exponentially.

Ultimately, adding the equilibrium bonus would give +33% balance regeneration to an e500 warrior and +50% balance regeneration to an e500 non-warrior. That makes it more useful at higher epic levels without being overpowered, and might make it feasible for melee characters to choose it over the pentagram.
Author:  Nuitari [ Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Isabelle wrote:
well, each time i do it, i still come up with the same result of seeing a cool bonus with having knight

so, if my methods are flawed, those here who are posting and saying that knight doesnt work should logon to testing.dark-legacy.com and show me.

(please)

let's do it now before the patch goes live


It might be that you are getting better results because you are using a slower character. If you do the spins more slowly, you have more time for your balance to regenerate between spins, and the reduced balance drain from The Knight(if it IS reduced balance drain, like Cele told me) would put you over the 1-extra-attack threshhold. Conversely, faster characters are getting a fractional extra attack that doesn't do them any good.

For example:
(note that these numbers are made-up for the sake of example; they are not the actual values used in DL)
Lowbie warrior does all but his last lunge. He's been going slowly, so he's regenerated .2 more points of balance during his attacking than triav warrior. Triav warrior starts with 5 balance and pays .85 balance per lunge instead of the standard 1. At 1 balance per lunge, he gets 5 lunges (5/1 = 5). At .85 balance per lunge, he gets 5.88 lunges, but he doesn't actually make that .88 of a lunge, he just loses balance because the game doesn't let you make a fractional attack for fractional balance. The lowbie warrior, on the other hand, regenerated an extra .2 balance during the longer time he took to make his attacks, and that .2 gives him enough balance to make that last, bonus spin. As a result, the lowbie sees a tangible benefit from The Knight wheras the triav does not.


Weems could also be right and it could be that The Knight gives regen, not reduced drain, but it doesn't seem to be that way and Celeborn specifically told me it was slower drain.
Author:  Nuitari [ Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
Grig seems very overpowered. With the significant movement speed bonus and the fact that retreat and cast do not share requirements, a caster using Grig would be untouchable by a melee character. Additionally, any character with Grig can control the flow of battle: their opponent cannot flee from the Grig unless they have other speed/mobility factors that greatly outclass the Grig(ie: higher speed stat, much larger size, entangle that the Grig can't resist and the ability to resist the Grig's entangle, superior slow spell)

Orc and Half-Orc also seem overpowered. Not taking bonus damage from aggressive berserk is, as has already been discussed, effectively a huge hp or damage bonus in melee. 50-100 damage reduction is very significant versus magic and will be at least somewhat effective versus melee after the resistance change. All of my 1035 epic points on the testport only buy me 60-something dr; nowhere near what an orc gets at level 50.

Troll still seems to get the shaft. Their wound/limb regeneration simply isn't fast enough to be useful at all. Regeneration score costs just as much to epicbuy as damage reduction, yet a troll gets only a small fraction of the regeneration that a troll gets dr(I had 20 regen with troll/hospic), plus the troll's wound/limb regeneration is vastly inferior to an orc's "no bonus damage from aggressive/berserk style"
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