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 Post subject: ideas
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:34 pm 
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pending authorization, it might be interesting to have builders create areas specifically to be placed on the various planes which are only accessible via the chants.

(like an area dedicated to the plane of earth/fire/water, etc)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:08 am 
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New and interesting areas are always a welcome addition. :D

Areas that are based in the various planes have a number of possibilities. Many of the star signs have an elemental aspect to them; perhaps this could be incorporated into the areas. The various planes would also be good areas where high level NPC quests can be placed. This idea would also have a positive effect on the new crafting system. Players will need a larger range of crafted items and enchantments to adventure in these areas. Lastly it will give high level players a new and interesting use for the powerful characters they have made.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:58 pm 
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Personally, I would like to see a couple planes which are accessible to lower level characters. They would be too strong for the average newbie, but an experienced player who can acquire good equipment would be able to fight in these areas for far more experience. Perhaps you only recieve a (non-binding) piece of eq when you level your third character to tri-av. This would prevent the lower caliber tri-avs from venturing to these harder areas. Another possibility is that lower levels could only get to these planes by soloing a very difficult mob, meaning that any character could get in if they possess the strength to kill the mobs in the plane's areas. I would also recommend no minimum/maximum levels for the areas in levelling planes. Celeborn's 15 level code would prevent power levelling.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:16 pm 
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Personally I would love to have these areas available to lower levels, it should obtainable with the coming craft patch without adding any special items, but I do like suggestion of soloing a difficult mob to gain access. As someone who loves to solo anyway, it is right up my alley. However I think the choice of level should be based on how many areas can be placed there.

If it is possible to have several areas in each of the planes with time, lets do it. But if we can not, then have it where only experienced players of epic level can travel there, even though this would deprive my character of these areas. I am not an epic player, in four or more years I have never tri-aved a single character. Which is why I do not comment much on the epic level aspects of this world. Or we could start with high level/difficulty areas in each plane and work down from there.

The reason I say this is because many players do not explore much at lower levels, they are to busy leveling. I have never had a character who did not have at least 75% explored by the time they level the first class, but this is not the norm. It is not uncommon to see a player make tri-av with percent explored ranging from the 20’s to the 40’s. Where as I have heard some complaints of high level players being bored with the current epic areas. As I said, I am not an epic player, but it seems to me that there are fewer things to do at epic levels than at lower ones.

Anyhow, here is a suggestion that could be used at any level. Have some star signs affect NPC’s and mobs on that plane. Example, A character born under the star sign The Sun goes to the plane of fire. NPC’s would react favorable to that person. Perhaps giving out special fire related quests with a fire based reward such as a blueprint or a rare enchantment. Mobs would be non-hostile to that character. A character born under the star sign The Waterfall would cause the mobs to be hostile, and call for reinforcements, whereas the NPC shop will respond with quips like “We don’t serve YOUR KIND hereâ€


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:00 pm 
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if right now, most players believe they have to get 200 xp per kill or its not worth their time, and you are wanting 'far more experience'

thats like what, 500?

so 10 kills per level..

or does far more xp mean 1000?
5 kills per level

maybe you would prefer that there wasnt any killing period, just set yourself to any level at your leisure?
It's already cheese to level, making it even more laughable is silly


if i had my way, i'd cap the experience at 50..


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 Post subject: plane of air
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:27 pm 
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hmm..I just went to the plane of air..and got my butt handed to me in a nicely giftwrapped box, -with- a red silk bow on it :/
I was there literally 5 seconds..all of a sudden 8 dragons were attacking me and killed me..thats a little too insane don't you think? :(


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:29 pm 
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I think you are looking at leveling the wrong way Isabelle. If I was a newbie and joined the game right now, I'm sure I wouldn't last long before getting frustrated and quitting, like I have seen numerous newbies do. The thing is, everybody is tri-av. Well, maybe not everybody, but I would say 95% of the established playerbase has at least one tri-avatar character on their account.

So said newbie walks in, sees all these people at level 5935729357, while they are at level negative 62. I think the challenge of the game should start at a tri-av level, as thats where most of the playerbase is already at. I know its difficult to imagine a 'newbie tri-av', as the whole point of tri-av'ing should be, after all, to teach you about the game. In reality though, its nothing like that, as I am sure you are aware Isabelle.

While the basics of combat, inventory managment, and tactics stay the same, everything else changes. You go from completly mob equipment dependent to crafted equipment dependent (I know that in the economy patch there are plans to change this, but bear with me anyway.) Also, once you reach tri-avatar there is nothing to DO, except epic and craft, and maybe PvP if you are adventurous enough. The game has essentially ended. Beaten. Done.

Thats a good arguement to keep them leveling to tri-av for a long time, I agree. That way it takes them longer to beat the game. But you are forgetting that most people are ALREADY tri-av, and they still play because they find that even though all that remains is epics, and crafting (as far as technical things go, there is still the social aspect, which in all honest is what I think keeps people here), the game is fun. So basically, all making leveling hard does is alienate the newbies, which is probably the worst possible thing that can happen. We need newbies. Tons of them.

Epic areas is where its at, hard, ridiculously hard epic areas. If you don't have a group of like 8 people who all know exactly what their a doing and work well together, you are screwed. Quest epic areas. They could be put in those planes like your suggestion. Fun fun fun.

You may say, 'well then, why not just make us start as epic then?'. Well, because the creation of a character, seeing how it is so very very significant in DL, should take more than typing N at the login screen. It should take some form of effort. In the end though, I agree with Quintos. Leveling to epic, for anybody with good crafted gear, should be downright easy. For a newbie with only decent gear that he scrounged and collected, 'normal' difficulty. More of a grind than a challenge.

And as far as experience per mobile goes...Yes, 200 exp. I don't think you should have to call anymore than like 4,000 mobiles to get to tri-avatar.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:03 am 
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as long as you believe 200 is more than fair, thats fine with me


And while i know that 'this is not how it is' please allow me to explain my beliefs.

It has nothing to do with time, well, it has little to do with time. It has everything to do with 'gaining knowledge about the game'

The faster you level, the less you encounter, the less you learn.
If anyone argues with me on that point, have a look at any powerlevelled character, or any of the older players who levelled much faster than they should have. They know squat about the game. epic 50 character, never seen a room that had no floor before. epic 75+ character, finally goes exploring, had never stepped inside more than 4 areas /ever/

who's fault is that? It's my fault, i allowed it too happen too long, and players grew to depend on it as the status quo.

It's up to myself and the other admins, to figure out how to keep levelling at a reasonably slow pace, slow enough to throw things in to teach players how to play the game, and discover the possibilities the game has to offer.

Never being in daravols realm, and similar areas which rely on players reading room descriptions, means a player simply learns not to read room descriptions, and when they get forced to, it is suddenly the hardest thing they've done. Talk to a super old school player, and they would have no trouble reading room descriptions if they had to.

theres so many things that can be learned in all those low level areas, things like digging, use canoes/boats to get across streams and rivers, reading signs, understanding that when mobs ask for items, giving them the item might prove to be useful.

without an admin ensuring that the players are sent through some of these areas, and encounter these situations, you are stuck with an epic 100 character asking what the command is to make a dagger, or asking why they keep getting sent to TSQ when they die, when they want to be sent to their structure instead.

The fault lies with me, but when players get around levelling, and shoot past everything that would have trained them to play the game, then we are all stuck with them, and spend our days answering questions about things which they could have learned on their own.

In my opionion, the game does not start at epic class, thats when it ends.

everything prior to epiccing, /is/ the game

sitting in a dungeon hacking and slashing to gain levels, it boggles my mind that people would find that exciting, the excitement is in the non epic areas, doing the areas quests. worldeater quests, xchantharus quests, galins quests, these are all areas with storylines, and things that make you think. i would pick them over an epic dungeon /everytime/


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:23 am 
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200 exp more than fair? Borderline. I would like to get much more than that, like Quintos, but I will take what I can get. Its annoying when you are on your fourth character.

An e100 character asking how to make a dagger wouldn't surprise me at all. When you hit epic is the first time you care about crafted things at all, as they are not needed to level before tri-av (nor should they be.)

I'm merely pointing that 'tri-av' and 'e200' are just names and numbers, they only have as much meaning as we let them have. I say do away with such 4 year old conceptions that every tri-av has to know tons, and that a tri-av newbie is a grave insult to the leveling system.

I don't think its your fault at all. In every multiplayer game I have ever played, there were always people who were unable to read, and instead would just ask constant annoying questions. Tons of people like that. Astronomical amounts. It doesn't matter how the game is designed, you can force them to do it. You can make randomized puzzles and force them to solo entire sections, it doesn't matter. No matter what you do, in the end people will come out of the whole thing asking stupid questions.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:49 am 
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Im not sure I have a solution but i wholly agree 100% with Isabelle's sentiment on tri-av experience. As a product of the system before quite a few patches, I can fairly accurately say that it was only till about 1.5 years ago (mb 2) that calling a tri-av a newbie was first started. There of course were a couple ppl that werent really good even as tri-avs but back when I was a newbie, you were pract. guaranteed an answer to most questions when you asked a tri-av. It was quite an indication of status and worthy of respect. (not in the sense that wow, they gained 50/50/50 levels, although that was quite harder than it is now, but you pretty much knew they were decent players) On Silvanos it actually took me awhile to triav because I did a whole lot of exploring, crafting, and being active within GoA. When the more recent epic dungeons (i want da goblins again!) came in i had Silvanos at about e46...i think i was #48 on hi epics for quite awhile :P and only had mb one or two triavs at e1. I stopped epiccing on Silvanos because it was pretty boring and i concentrated on crafts. He hasnt epicced since and its been less than a year since i really started to devote any characters to epics and why? Because 1. crafts got boring :roll: 2. its pretty much one of the last things i havent done in this game. So do i feel that the game ends at tri-av...no. Do i still feel people reaching tri-av should not be newbies anymore? Damn straight. You dont have to brilliant because at tri-av you can explore all the areas with hard mobs and when you encounter difficulty its fun to defeat it and improve yourself so you can. You dont necessarily need epic mobs to be your crucible. I wonder how many ppl today have seen Daravols death message thing...once upon a time I had that in my bio to show off, much like some people now have Seths death/receiving of Genesis/Oblivion. You cant cure the current triav newbies but you can set it up so future newbies will. Ive talked to newbies who complain they can’t level and they keep getting killed. I ask them how they get their eq, if they pick up mob eq and compare it to their own stuff, if they’ve asked their guild for help/info regarding eq, if they’ve started crafts to perhaps pay for a loan of money to buy equipment from their guild, etc etc. I don’t think ive ever heard one say yes to any of those questions. Perhaps the closest was yes ive posted a note on the guild noteboard but no one wants to help me and i believe that was even OoA. Pract. no one helps people these days except to set up resurrect triggers, and mb to regen and heal. Everyone knows I believe in the policy of helping people help themselves. That’s why I spout help files and info instead of healing people... Its pointless to do otherwise because they’ll just stick to asking for it and never move on. When i first started levelling all i did was practically collect red and violet potions and sleep off any excess damage and *not* beg for heals every 5 minutes. I don’t often, however, see other players giving advice and ive even been teased or insulted for not giving ppl easy answers. I tell ppl to check out http://www.kialli.tk when they ask things about vials, pets and runes etc. and they ask why? i just want to know what a rich brown egg is. And i tell them that it gives you all the possibilities plus you can check out information about other pets so you dont need to ask and you have an information resource at your disposal and then they ask why im so mean and i dont just tell them......
I keep doing it because ill be damned if im going to spoonfeed anyone, but im just hoping more people will start giving good advice. So I guess I do have a solution after all :P Yay for ranting! So basically I feel that tri-aving should remain hard for newbies and that guilds and players need to start teaching…NOT giving away free crap…teaching.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:38 am 
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Well there you go Silvanos. Instead of being open to new ideas, you are stuck on semantics and pride, what a surprise.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:10 pm 
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Youre quite eager to insult even your "friends" when they dont agree with you huh? I never said anything against your epic dungeon idea since i didnt discuss solutions for the tri-av newbies; it could be a nice addition even but not for newbies. As for incoming newbies, i mentioned that actually teaching them things, instead of either ignoring them or giving them free stuff, would drastically improve their ability to level and to play the game in general. Now if you think thats because im not "open to ideas" and because of "semantics and pride" then ill stop posting on this thread and let you enjoy your own wit.
Whats the purpose of tri-aving if not to teach people about all the aspects of the game or at least most of them..You want a medium difficulty but that really serves no purpose except as a time delay. The variety of areas has way more potential to teach than epics even if you did change them a bit. If people can "get away" with wearing crap, not thinking about battle tactics etc etc..then they will and that wont change when they hit epics. Now if you instate hard epics then all youre doing is delaying the moment when they say: "damn thats too hard". You want uber-hard epics for large groups, who'll be able to use those? Not the tri-av newbs ill tell you that...well unless they can leach. I mean they cant even solo *now*...

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:49 pm 
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i personally, do not want hard, or easy

i want things that are thought provoking, and make the participant feel like they are really accomplishing something.
not just killing X to bring themselves up a level

Some players do still use the lower level areas, and they get very excited when they solve problems, and discover new things, ways to use skills. It happens, and i feel it's my duty to help other players have access to those same experiences.

For those who have never experienced their own evolution in the game due to repetitive hack n slashing in a single area.. they will never understand this concept. For those who have not yet joined the game, i hope to give them something special that they can take away from the Dark-Legacy experience.

Those persons who have used a single area to level up in, never bothered exploring when they had the opportunity to do so, simply have denied themselves the experience of playing, they're damaged goods.
I can't do anything for them, but i can do my best to help out future players.

I get great satisfaction from seeing new players get all excited when they find a hidden door, or a secret section of an area, or some special thing because they have taken the time be involved with what the mud has to offer. And anyone who says 'well i can explore after i tri avatar' thats a load of BS, finding a level 12 weapon in a secret room when youre a tri avatar, whoopy do. It's a waste.

In any event, i will never convince those persons who have already destroyed themselves by powerlevelling, and it's not my purpose to do so, its for persons who are not yet playing.

And, for what its worth, when my first post about adding areas to epic planes was posted, it was to allow players some high end game content.
Since only epic players can get there, it would allow those persons who do like doing more than levelling, something to do.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:54 pm 
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Isabelle wrote:
And anyone who says 'well i can explore after i tri avatar' thats a load of BS, finding a level 12 weapon in a secret room when youre a tri avatar, whoopy do. It's a waste.
Hate to break it to you, Isabelle, but finding a level 12 weapon in a secret room when you're level 12 is still a waste with the current system. In a conversation with Weems yesterday, I mentioned that if areas actually had something to offer players, it wouldb e a different story. As it stands, levelling is nothing but a waste of time once you know what you're doing.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:59 pm 
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finding a level 12 weapon in a secret room when you are level 9 is a big deal, you will never understand that, but its true.

i dont say this because i am making it up, i'm saying it, because i often assist new players, and i see their excitement when they think they have discovered something no one has seen before.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:08 pm 
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Isabelle wrote:
finding a level 12 weapon in a secret room when you are level 9 is a big deal, you will never understand that, but its true.

It used to be a decent deal when mob weapons were worth using. Perhaps after the equipment patch, it will be again...but right now...perhaps to someone who doesn't yet realize the power of the crafting system, it would be a small deal...

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:12 pm 
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For me all the fun has always been in playing below epic level. I think of tri-av and above as just keeping a treasured character and epics is just having something to do with them after retirement from the game.
I also think 200 experience is excessive at any level. Especially with the meager effort needed to get experience these days.

I think the problem starts in the newbie academy. Players start off getting over 100 experience a shot and making levels fast, and they come to expect it the rest of the game. The experience in the academy should be cut way down; also the academy should not raise someone to more than level 3 to 5. A sign or NPC in this area should direct characters to Bolo so they can then be sent to some of the other low-level areas to continue their education. This would also keep players in the newbie guild longer, so new players can get the help they need. As it is now, you can be out of the newbie guild the day you start playing the exp. is so good at these levels. Heck, you can make 3 levels walking around Tarsonis if you are new.

They other thing that gets players lots of experience, and makes them expect it is grouping. I think experience should be split among the group, just like gold is. I say this not only because it will slow down leveling, but rather because the current system is not fair to those of us who go solo. Every member of a group does not deserve to get the same experience someone who killed the mob one on one got for it. Often some members of a group do not even get to attack every mob as it is killed by the first few attacks. Yet they get full experience from the battle. Only a bard should get full experience from being in a group, as helping a group is their main function.

I am not against grouping; I just see it in a different context. Groups can bring down a mob that none of the individuals could bring down alone, and makes hard fights easier. So why should they each deserve full experience for a fight they can’t or won’t do on their own?

I think just these two changes will slow down leveling a lot. It may even promote exploring as players seek mobs they can take solo.

On the subject of exploring, I would like to touch on the subject of the mini-map we use now. Before the mini-map players had to read the room descriptions and make hand-drawn maps to get around, ah the good old days, when a high explore percent really meant something. For the most part I think the mini-map has been a good aid in helping players explore. My only complaint is that it shows areas that used to be hidden. No longer does a player have to read and try different things out to find these places. Oh, there is a passage east, just passwall and go.

I have also leveled a number of races and classes in this game, and the thrill of starting a new character and the process of leveling, etc. has never grown old for me. Perhaps it is my age or years of gaming that makes it so for me.

Well I have cause more than enough contention for one post.

Arureal

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:11 pm 
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For myself, the problem with DL is not the areas. We have quite a few good areas that are involving. Could we add more? Sure we could. Would it grossly improve the game? No, it would not.

The problem with DL is not the leveling experience. Would more newbies stay if they could level faster? Possibly... Would an equal number go to a more challenging MUD? Possibly...

The problem with DL is not epics. Have experienced players always been able to solo in epics? Yes, they have. Have inexperienced players always had a hard time solo'ing in epics? Yes, they have. Have people always banned together in large groups to power-epic? Yes, they have (for the most part). Will people continue to use epics? Yes, they will.

The problem with DL is not the equipment. People have always used mob items of one kind or another, and they always will. People have always used crafted items of one kind or another since the first days of crafting. Has the popularity of certain specific items and materials changed over the years? Sure, but it always will too.

To me, the problem with DL is there is no Story, no Roleplay, no real reason to befriend a newbie. Does anyone care that a drunk dwarf is sitting in a tavern somewhere drinking and singing about days and heros long gone? No, no one does. Does anyone sit around a fire and tell stories about how huge that dragon was... "An dere I be, with dere door locked behind me and dis HUGE, and I do be meaning HUGE, black beast before meself. Und what dere pixie mage do? He do wet himself, and blinked away!...."

There is no Roleplay, there are no player made stories, no one sits anywhere but a pillar, or in their structure. They only mingle with others to complain or for strength in numbers to fight some mob. There are no good guys fight bad guys. There is no great evil to defeat. There is no army at the gates to fend off. Nothing to do but craft, continue to level, fish, or whine in the forums.

How do we fix it all? I don't know, but wish I did. I myself have forced the world to RP for short periods of time, be it a huge tourney, mystism over secretly made items, or a war between races. One person can only do so much. There is no secret society to keep RP in DL.

Could there be a secret group? Sure, there could! Would it do any good? Who would be picked? Would kingdoms finially come in? What things could we do to start epic tales?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:23 pm 
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I've always admired your way of telling a story like the one about the dwarf dragon slayer. Your need for some real RP must be killing you if you can pull storys like that out of a game where such storys are rare.

I dunno, i find humor in everything i suppose.

But seriously, a serious plot of good guys against the evil guys that would last longer than the average tourny is just what DL needs to stay interesting. Sadly some people play games just to exercise their fingers, and think story lines like that are a waste of time. a freind of mine was bragging at lunch one day and said something to the effect of "Well i'm a level such and such and i make level such and such uber weapons, i lead a guild, and..." and you get the idea. When i asked him what the purpose of this game was he shrugged and said he didnt care. "Oh i dont care what i play, its **** to be into the story lines like ' I'm going to slay the dragon'. And ' cure a village of a disease' i only do that stuff if i need something from the quest, otherwise its stupid to get into it"

I got a little irritated and yelled at him " So why even play at all? If you dont play for at least some mild enjoyment of a job well done why are you wasteing your time???!!!" People like that are obviously brain dead with no imagination.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:01 pm 
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hey!! I have /no/ imaginaton and I stilled rped for a bit :S

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:09 pm 
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I just realised that putting in a story line would make the game , for lack of a better word, "beatable". The game could actualy end if the planteary strife of good and evil is won by one or the other, or you would finish the quests and it would go back to the way it was before you did it and the story would repeat itself, thus becomeing dull, and possibly abusable so someone can do a quest over and over to get the same item reward from it.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:14 pm 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
the story line of dark legacy is not very detailed, the areas do not have a central theme, up to this point, i've been trying just to keep some areas from not 'conflicting' with the theme, rather than 'enforcing' the storyline.

Zeraphin has told me that Celeborn may be releasing something in the next patch to allow building port to be useable. When this happens, i have a desire to create a team of builders, and a team of quest builders, and a team of storyline writers.
I expect all three teams to confer with each other on the themes of the areas.

Example:
Vogar says 'ok, heres this idea for a dwarven society, which is different from the normal dwarves. These dwarves wear bright green clothing, always, with a symbol of a hammer crushing a rock on their tabards.

builder1 makes an area, and then tosses in some mention of some dwarves running around dressed in bright green, and bearing this strange crest on their tabard.

builder2 makes an area, and then tosses in something about some dwarves needing the player to bring some note to an area created by builder3. the note may be to start a quest, involving vogars storyline.

and all these instances are not a central theme, but rather just something noticeable by players who are paying attention to the areas.
Maybe there would be an area with just a lowly inn, bearing that crest on its door, and nothing further.


Perhaps a writer could make a story about a great battle many many hundreds of years ago, and then have some builders work that into their areas.


So, i think with a team of writers, and people willing to contribute ideas, we can probably come up with many themes to the mud, which can be far reaching. Perhaps we could also have the official storyline modified, or elaborated upon.


It's not a lost cause yet :)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:56 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:52 am
Posts: 592
Silvanos, I do consider myself to be your friend, and I hope you consider me one as well, despite how hostile I am about the conceptual ideas portrayed on the forums.

I love you all.


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