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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:30 pm
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Character Customization, not caretaker customization :P

And I simply meant that if there aren't going to be any hirings for builders, players should get something for their time. And you can call me greedy or whatever, or say I'm just saying it cause I write desc's for area's myself, but those aren't the only two reasons! ;) I honestly believe they should. And doing that stuff as a caretaker is different, you have the prestige (and curse) of being a caretaker, you get to make the caretakers uberly bad arse in appearance and make them into 150 foot long dragons and spider monkeys and what have you. (not saying I wanna be a 150 foot spider monkey mind you, it was an example) But I mean, from where I sit (I have DM'd for a long time w/ friends, not as rough as being a caretaker, but it can get grueling none-the-less) Anyway, when players would help me with certain things, like say finding all the xp values for the monsters and totallign them up at the end so I don't have to do that crap, I reward them a little for their time. What I'm saying is, when a player gives up hours of playing time to make the MUD a better place, an obscure, hardly noticed reward (name on the author list) isn't as neato as getting a "magical sword" which doesn't affect the balance of the game but IS named "Gideon's Longsword of Pain" and responds to "get gideon" that kidna thing.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:10 pm 
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So essentially, "full engraves" are something you'd like to see as a reward for building. Ie, rather than the normal engraves which only change the short desc, you get the name, long, and short desc changed, including the possibliity of capitals, which engrave doesn't allow. Or an mset custom race. Things of that nature, cosmestics.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:41 pm 
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Precisely! Things where you can alter your character, I mean, I'd want it to be something I'd be able to feasibly use, like if I wanted like "Vikingr Helmet of Valhalla" I wouldn't want a newbie cap that's renamed to that. If I was elvl 50 I'd want an elvl 50 mitrill helm that was renamed to that.

Like Gideon's shirt "I single handedly slew 7 constantines in on blow" was a cuirass.


Or, perhaps a free rename of the guild I posess, so that it would fit the RP design I have in mind for it. Nothing that gives me or anyone an unfair advantage. Just, as you said, full Engrave, not just the 100 gold ones, or Mset race kinda deal. That stuff on top of the author, nothing like a quadrillion gold.

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 Post subject: kariyana
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:02 pm 
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well kariyana, i didnt put your name up there, because the authors name would have needed to be :
Dark Legacy / Harax / Kariyana / Jaasiel

which was too huge, so, i settled for making a sign with your names on it, and, i offered you any reward of your choosing, if you thought your work wasnt recognized, well im sorry you feel that way, i guess any reward system will be doomed to fail, i should have just said thank you, and ended it at that, rather than giving you the tattoo that you had requested.

i will edit the area file and try it, if thats what you wanted.

You said i control your submissions before implementation, and that you have been badgered for something i could have done myself in the first place? First, i control nothing, whatever the player posts, i copy and paste into the area, its that simple. I wasnt aware of the badgering, i was asking for help fixing descriptions, and yeah, youre right, i could do it myself, but i just put the offer out there for help from those who wanted to give it.

A couple of the people who submitted room descriptions submitted poorly written descs, and when it was obvious right off, that the descs were no better than the ones they were replacing, i did indeed mention it.

And, the times i mentioned to players about typoes in room descs, it was to ensure quality of the area, nothing more. Even if there were 'builders' online, i would still be doing the same thing. (looking over your shoulder)

online building, its not in my power, it requires considerable effort on "celeborns" part, to code it to prevent players from cheating, at this moment, that does not exist. So, i make do with what i have, and, i think i have a darn good way to fix up areas, and keep everything very safe for me, and keep me happy, i like the bug typo thing, its simple, and its available. The other things you mention do not exist.

i hope that helps you understand my perspective. and i do understand yours, but its currently not an option.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:46 pm 
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I see that the whole point of the post was missed, yet again. This is why there's a thing called re-reading.

1) I wasn't made aware of a sign of any sorts, just the tattoo.

2) I've never been a part of a MUD where rewards were made part of the building process. For the most part, just my name being in the area list was enough for me. I didn't even expect the extra thing, and in turn, you really didn't have to offer it to me. But you did. And when you did, that left me up to accepting. I didn't know sarcasm was something to be expected either, coming especially from the source that it is.

3) Now that the tone has been set to where offense is a necessity in determining a retort, no need to bother with any other extra work on your part.

4) Please remind me where your name was mentioned in the post where I expressed concern over submissions being controlled before implementation. And I never said that you badgered me for something you could have done in the first place. I don't understand where you get that, or the fact that you were the subject of the initial comment. If you can find it, then I will apologize. But since I just re-read what I posted, I won't. I have no need to.

It sounds like you're unimpressed with the post, and I'm sorry if you feel that way. I didn't mean to put that out there to impress anyone, I put it out there as a honest means of expression from my end. And I did state, in the beginning, that you could take it as you wish. And you have, clearly. I guess I should have expected sarcasm at this point in the discussion, which is a shame.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:56 pm 
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Please recall that text cannot convey emotion or tone. I have reread the entire thread and cannot detect any hints of sarcasm, though some assumptions may have been made by both sides.

Kariyana: Your original posts mentions head builders will and do knit-pick. For all intents and purposes, Isabelle is the head builder on DL, so its not too far a stretch for her to assume that she's whom you refer to.

Obviously there is some communication work that needs to be done in regards to the whole situation, but that's part of what creating the forums aims to do, to air out our complaints or ideas in a larger medium than noteboards allow. Obviously, this thread couldn't have existed in game.

Step back, remember that this is all done, by all of us, for free in our free time, sometimes after a long day at work or school, or taking care of the kids, take your deep breathe, and go at it again.

Credit will always be given where due. Perhaps the area list command needs adjusted to allow a larger area for author names, or perhaps an "area info" command needs to be added so players can gather more in-depth information about an area. Also, we may need to put into writing what types of work, and how much of it, warrants being listed as an author.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:08 pm 
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Oh I agree 110% on the conveyance of tone where text is concerned, it's something I've witnessed and been a part of for the last 9 years now.

And I agree that the forums are great for getting all feelings, concerns and opinions out where as they wouldn't be able to take place on the MUD itself. Many of us have expressed opinions on avenues for others to view and they've been removed, for reasons we're unaware of.

Perhaps have an area help file that shows the people responsible for the maintain and upkeep of an area where it's listed at the bottom? That would be a good fix too :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:11 pm 
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The main reasons most notes get removed on the in-game noteboards is to simply clear space. Note list can only display so much information, and as such notes have to be removed. Sometimes they get removed before they really got a response, which is unfortunate.

It used to be the practice to have a help file for every area. Most of the stock areas have them. It would be a good place to put a description of its areas, explaination of the soft and hard level restrictions, and a full detailing of the major and minor authors of the the area.

Its got my support.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:59 am 
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I have to say i would really like the idea of an area info command. Listing not only the authors and construction workers ;) but also info about the plot of the area, mb its relative size, this can allow for more info on the difficulty of mobs so ppl can stop whining about where to level. Maybe even a levelling recommendation for the level its at? score from 1-10. Just useful stuff that doesnt give away any secrets or whatever.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:55 pm 
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I am now looking for individuals to partake in this exercize. Your job will be to write and submit what Silvanos just described: The plot/theme of the area, its relative size, what levels is focuses around, and the general usefulness of the area. For example, some areas are purely for leveling, while others exist mainly to contain a quest or story line, or specific equipment for Avatars (Granted, most people craft these days).

If you're interested, send me a private message (PM) and I will give you a block of areas to work on. Please contact me before you do any work, as I don't want anyone duplicating work that already got done.

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 Post subject: ...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:05 pm 
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i'm not a builder and wasnt a very good one on Shadow Dominion. So my comment probably has little value, but just read on anyway.

The trust issue is a big deal. The middleman is necessary. It's just one of the security thing that DL have learned from the past.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:37 pm 
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I've seen problems arise where trust was a deciding factor in whether to hire, fire or ban someone when it comes to building. Systems in place with fail-safe methods should help alleviate any negative trust, though if it's set up right, trust shouldn't even be an issue.

There are many methods to help with this: a watch file upon hiring for 60-90 days, restriction of having a mortal character for builders, denying access to commands that allows for people to access certain information, immortal-builder mentoring and interaction, builder-only code, etc. No matter where you go, you will always find someone that's going to try to slip through the cracks and help him/herself to something that they shouldn't. But it's what you do before, during and after this happen that determines how well they are able to get away with it.

Speaking from an admin standpoint, I've had to put watch files on people because of a feeling I've had, and in the end, my feelings were right and resulted in strip, sacrifice, and balzhur with a site ban to keep the person from coming back. I'm sure it's easier on DL because of the account code, and the way ban works here is probably a bit different than the way ban works on any other MUD.

You are never going to find a MUD where cheating doesn't happen. Someone out there is always finding a way to outsmart the smart people, and in the end, a lesson is learned and policies are changed to help prevent this from happening again. If you can't trust anyone that you put in a position of administration or building, maybe you need to re-evaluate your position with the group and see if there's anything you can do on your end to help yourself trust again. I'm not saying you have to open yourself up fully, I'm saying that you have to give those who have real experience a chance. Develop a policy where you're 100% sure of someone before hiring them, then install a way to keep an eye on them for a certain time frame. Just don't tell them about it. It helps in more ways than you think ;) Believe me, 5 years of immortal experience and 9 years of total playtime experience gives you the ability to do so :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:42 pm 
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This discussion of trust is somewhat moot. No area builders will exist on the main port, only Caretakers. That's just the way its going to be. Fail safe methods were used in the past, but the damage was still done despite numerous security lock downs. Builders couldn't even go anywhere but gods.are and their assign areas, and still managed to get around various other safe guards.

Builders will not exist until the BPORT is ready to go, and even then it will have various safe guards in place such as removing all main port areas that aren't needed for the mud to function. This could be as soon as this week, but there won't be any builders on the main port.

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Zeraphin Chan
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:58 am 
Don't you just hate it when others mess things up for everyone else? :roll:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:59 pm 
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aye, i do :(

My application still stands :D

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"I've fallen so far from grace that pain is second nature to me now." ---Avestifal


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 11:07 pm 
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I remember seeing Dragonfly on a friend's comp - it was really easy to use. Do you think that if it was re-introduced, we could make more rapid headway on these problem areas? We could introduce some "stock" mobs, like generic trolls or guards. Each mob could be grouped with other mobs by race, and maybe each major race (troll, human, elf, etc.) would have 15 different mobs (lv 10 mostly-melee, lv. 10 mostly-magic, lv. 10 mostly-ranged, lv. 20 mostly-melee, etc.). These "stock" mobs could be equipped identically, so that lower-levelled players would have easy access to equipment that - while it wouldn't be that great - would still be better than the stock gear.

...just a thought ^_^

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