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 Post subject: New Builders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:47 pm 
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I would like there to be like, one or two new builders headed by a head builder who would go around DL fixing shizit up etc. I personally, would also like to nominate myself for this task. The builder, not head builder. I have some experience, I would like a chance to show what I can do, I've written lots of descs, and I feel that posting all my new desc's on the bug list are an insane bother, and if I could personally edit those desc's it'd be A) less work for the imms and B) I could go back through and correct any typos I missed on re-reads.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:31 pm 
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AVESTIFAL FOR BUILDER!!!

Seriously. I agree completley. More builders certainly wouldnt hurt. And good ole Avestifal certainly seems willing enough.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:33 pm 
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I also nominate Avestifal...cause hes the King **** of the Universe


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:18 am 
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GO AVESTIFAL!

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 Post subject: Erm...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:41 am 
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Hey, didn't a discussion about this topic take place a while back where we all agreed on certain things with certain people that made it impossible for new builders to come up? And if I remember correctly, didn't you already apply to be a builder, Aves dear? I wouldn't mind building, already do on another MUD, and it would rock if the head builder would be Roje cause she rocks anyways....*cough*.

I already applied for Caretaker, and well, I'm still waiting :P


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:04 am 
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there is a reason why we dont have many builders. the caretakers know what i'm speaking of.
Years ago we had a bunch of builders but Celeborn fired like 99% of them because of *****. I can't reveal it for security reasons. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:07 am 
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*Pops in, slips Lingolas a cyanide pill, and pops out* He revealed too much. And basically...I believe they cheated, and I could get more information if people want...I was never sworn to secrecy :P


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 Post subject: Re: Erm...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:19 am 
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Kariyana wrote:
Hey, didn't a discussion about this topic take place a while back where we all agreed on certain things with certain people that made it impossible for new builders to come up? And if I remember correctly, didn't you already apply to be a builder, Aves dear? I wouldn't mind building, already do on another MUD, and it would rock if the head builder would be Roje cause she rocks anyways....*cough*.

I already applied for Caretaker, and well, I'm still waiting :P


Impossible for new builders to come up? Thats the stupidest thing I have ever heard. I don't care if the past builders cheated or whatever, why would any of that apply to Avestifal?


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 Post subject: so you know
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:34 am 
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There will 'not' be builders as other muds have them, at this time, nor, in the near future.
No plans have been set aside for such builders. Building can be utilized by using the 'bug / typo' command ingame. That is the extent of a dark legacy builder. (Until such time as dragonfly is rebuilt)


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 Post subject: Re: so you know
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:50 am 
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Isabelle wrote:
There will 'not' be builders as other muds have them, at this time, nor, in the near future.
No plans have been set aside for such builders. Building can be utilized by using the 'bug / typo' command ingame. That is the extent of a dark legacy builder. (Until such time as dragonfly is rebuilt)


If I may inquire, why is it such a big deal to have a normal builder? Is the learning curve really huge or something?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:51 am 
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Resources do not currently allow for a true BPORT (Building Port), and its generally not a good idea to have builders actively working on the normal game port.

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 Post subject: no
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:53 am 
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its trust, i have none to give :)

we were screwed over already by cheating pieces of poo, so, i have taken it upon myself to be an intermediary, and take builders proposed changes, and insert them into the areas.

Perhaps one day, maybe, but currently, no.

I want the existing areas fixed first, then we can start with new ones, and consider builders.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:54 am 
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Isabelle, make me a level 65 builder, you know I'd never abuse my power ;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:05 am 
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Sigh.

Well, I guess thats that.

But seriously Isabelle, if you don't trust *AVESTIFAL*, who CAN you trust?
Nobody I guess. That was probably your point. :shock:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:32 am 
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I thought the whole reason for applying through a caretaker with the credentials that are listed was to help get rid of any doubt that someone would have in hiring builders.

So you're basically restricting people who have outstanding build records, shown their potential (actually some are over-experienced), because of past instances? What about trial periods? And I'm sure that by people submitting other places they've built on, with references, plus with a watch file on the person, that doubt was removed.

While the current system is ok, there's no credit given to the contributors other than a piece of eq that people who don't know the whole deal will bitch, gripe and complain. And we all know how much people dislike that on a daily basis.

Maybe a builder code needs to be installed to curb cheating, use of unnecessary commands, etc....and it's out there. I know, I built on one for -four- years. Oh well, I guess offering up areas as a way to show potential is out of the question too.


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 Post subject: re:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:45 am 
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a builder and a caretaker are two different people


i do not need builders to make new areas for me right now, i need help fixing the ones we have, and they have been doing that.

As for rewards for building, those who spend 'alot' of time on an area do get their name displayed as one of the authors, either in the authorname section, or somewhere in the area itself.

Ask Gideon

those who want to build, can, the only difference is that they can't make the items directly themselves.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:42 am 
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All in an effort to try to understand the logic behind this entire post, I'm going to post whatever viewpoints I have concerning the subject. Take this as you wish.

If I understand correctly, being a Caretaker is basically the admin side and being a builder is the building side. May I be wrong in this? From past experience, builders have little to do with the daily activities and decisions that are made, where the Caretakers are left up to doing just that. Administration on a MUD where there's two separate unities should be left up to the people specializing in admin, while the areas and those items within the areas should be left up to builders. If not, then what's the purpose of being a builder?

"As for rewards for building, those who spend 'alot' of time on an area do get their name displayed as one of the authors, either in the authorname section, or somewhere in the area itself."


What constitutes alot? From what I saw, the only credit I received in redoing portions of Highmoon was a SDT. And I partnered up with Gideon to do all the room descriptions, even the ones inside the Gauntlet area, where I had to wait on someone to help me get through because the mobiles were a little too tough for me to properly make a room description without worrying that I was going to get cremated. Ooooh. So when people ask me where I got the tattoo, and I say 'helping out with Highmoon', they're just like 'eh' and shrug. When it comes to being part of something that others are going to see, they will never know whose responsible for an area unless there's constant visual proof (ie: names in the author area, name in an extra item description, etc). And I believe that's all people really want in being a builder. To be able to put an area out there, or make changes in an area, and have actual credit given to them that's visible for others to recognize. So you mean to tell me that you're going to put the names of every single person who worked on a specific area in the author list? The last I checked, the buffer for such a command was limited due to the line size.

I think the people expressing interest in building know the difference between psuedo-building and being an actual builder. And 9 times out of 10, all they want to do is build. The good ones follow the rules, do what they're asked to do, and never really expect anything more than their name and their work to be shown to the MUD. This is why people take their own areas when they leave and either use them on another MUD or submit them to Shadowlands for free distribution.

"i do not need builders to make new areas for me right now, i need help fixing the ones we have, and they have been doing that."

No one is saying they want to put out a totally new area. I think most of the people doing the fixes now feel restricted, unable to do stuff with one single command. They'd rather have the ability to make changes without a middle-man party to be there and knit-pick at them for whatever reason. I know that head builders will do this, I've been one, but when a mortal is badgered by an immortal for something the immortal could have done in the first place, but felt too busy to do so themselves, it makes people not want to build. All these people want to do is to help make the areas out there better in other ways than using one or two commands. And they can't even improve anything more than a room at that rate. All because there's no trust where there should be.

All I, and most of the people posting on this website who can't do anything more than submit new descriptions via a command that someone else controls before implementation, would like to see is people up there who can devote their time to just building. With the ability to do so. And without someone thinking they're going to cheat and steal whatever they can. You can't dwell on the past when you have the ability to fix it now and control the future. Like I said, take what I put here as you wish, but it's how I and probably 95% of the people who've asked to be a part of the staff to build feel.

It's not hard to be able to install a safety measure to ensure that things that happened in the past don't happen again. And I bet you that your bug list, where typos and broken items and broken programs and such are listed, would decrease dramatically. All it takes is some work. But I'm probably just blowing hot, educated air...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:28 am 
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I don't mean to sound greedy, despite the fact I probably do, but there are things I would like on top of my name on the credits list, like, when I put in a good amount of effort, sure you get my creative uh..."genius" and I get to say "whee! I wrote that!" But material rewards are good perks as well, it gives the builders a chance to personalize their characters a little bit more by giving more personality (no matter how noticed it is or isn't by the DL player base) to Dark Legacy's area's.

But I must admit, it is a feather in my cap to see my character's name on the authors list whenever I type "area" which I do far more often to silently pat myself on the back for my work. But other cool things like my tattoo are also accepted. It feels more like my work is valued. Now, if I were to be quote un quote "hired" as a builder, even with the current "just do it via bug list things" And have some kind of neat little marker saying I'm a Bona Fide Dark Legacy builder, I might be less desiring of a material reward as often. And I understand that there's a concern in the game because of cheating, but, to my knowledge, I've never knowingly cheated. And when I was concerned about the possibility I might, I went to an IMM with it, like when I discovered that you could zap w/ jewellry in the center of the arena, I went straight to issy and asked if it was ok that that could be done, I did not receive a negative response, and when I told her I was gonna use it, she said "ok."

Anyway, so yeah. Is there a way that a player could be given like, individual commands? Like maybe, room desc edit? So that I would be able to just go to a room and change the desc right there?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:04 am 
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Also, now that I'm re-reading this thread:

Being that I'm not a very technically oriented person when it comes to mud files, is there some way where like, a mud file of some sort could be sent to a person so that they could like login as a builder when it's their comp running it but not be able to log in as a builder when it's the actual server, so that the person could alter and fix the given area, and then send it back fixed up and happy?

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"I've fallen so far from grace that pain is second nature to me now." ---Avestifal


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:34 pm 
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Here comes Zeraphin!

#1) Credit. I can understand where this one is coming from. But I'd like to point something out.. Even CARETAKERS don't really get any credit for all the work they've done. Sure, everyone knows we've done it, no one else could of, but the "thank you" part is very rare, and most of them time we don't bother to alter the author section of the area, leaving just the original builder's name. I've altered probably 75% of all the areas in DL in one way or another, yet my name is only on those areas I fully built, or redesigned at least 50% of. If you feel you've done sustainal work on an area, enough that you should be listed with the original author, we'll review that, just let us know. But fixing typo's isn't really enough if you ask me to be ranked with the guy (or gal) who originally spent hours upon hours building the original area.

#2) Room descriptions. This sorta ties in with the first part. Room descriptions are the single most boring and difficult task in area building. Its easy to build up a map of empty rooms, and its fairly easy to populate them with mobiles, which makes it even easier to make up some equipment for them. Then you get into the job of mud program, which I love. These breathe a lot of life into the mobiles and give them character. And then.. what are you left with? Room descriptions. Gah. GAH. If an area takes me 4 weeks to complete, chances are I finished everything but the room descriptions in the first week. So in that regards, I understand why people want credit for heavy work on room descriptions. Again, if you feel you've done enough work to warrant being named with the original author, speak up.

#3) Alternative to area list Author section: Add a new highscore board or list "buildlist" .. And list there the areas worked on by players and what they did, a kind of hall of fame for building. Comments?

#4) Sending Mud files to the player: If the Dragonfly offline builder were ready, this would be what you'd use to create all new areas. Once your area was completed, you would send us the area file (.are) and we'd install it into the game for testing and further tweaking. In the end though, it isn't a very good idea to take "live" areas, those already in use, alter them offline for a time, then overwrite the copy that's in the game. Its very hard to keep the two copies in sync, which can result in objects changing or being altered and no body understanding where the change necessarily came from. It is also impossible to send the game files to a player so he/she can run a "Mini-DL" on their PC to build with.. Its simply too big a risk, as you really can't log a program to only work on a specific person's PC.

#5) I will be working with Celeborn shortly to prepare a "BPORT" for online building, which will essentially be used ONLY for new areas. No altering existing ones, the possiblity of them getting out of sync once again being the reason. On the BPORT you'd be a true builder with all the commands available, no chance of cheating (Your character can't be affected), and no whiny players bothering you :) Your name goes in the author field, whee.

PS: I love the forums. One post rather than five individual notes on a noteboard.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:50 pm 
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#1 I almost wrote a rant how I spend hours and hours writing room descriptions, but you mentioned it so you saved me some time :P.

#2 I've thanked before, but it got removed like, 5 mins after I posted it, so I didn't know if there was much appreciation for it or not so I figured that the fact I'm not complaining 24/7 would have to stand as my thank you :P

#3 I agree with some kind of "High Builder" list thingie, but what about some kind of other rewards? Like perhaps "Character Customization" points or favors? Like with my Character Gideon, for working Highmoon I requested a tattoo called the mark of Jabesh to fit in w/ my RP. (i.e a renamed tatt)
Customization points would help diversify up the char's a bit.

#4 Do y'all still have my builder application for when dragonfly is all happy-time again?

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"I've fallen so far from grace that pain is second nature to me now." ---Avestifal


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:42 pm 
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If you posted your appreciation to TSQ, unfortunately, it probably was removed. We have to try very hard to keep the TSQ noteboard fairly short and managable, which means a LOT of notes end up removed :/

Once again, forums rock. No removing stuff because "note list" is too long or the board is full.

Also: I believe someone asked "Do you still have my application?" ... I didn't check for yours specificly, but we have moved and are storing builder applications in a Caretaker only area of the forums, so they're not going to be lost.

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Zeraphin Chan
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:46 pm 
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yay!

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"I've fallen so far from grace that pain is second nature to me now." ---Avestifal


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:38 pm 
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In an attempt to reply with a huge headache, I'll try to be brief, on-topic and to the point.

Thank you Zeraphin for your response and more importantly, for putting up with the peons that tick us off every day and working your ass off to help make the areas and items within the MUD better :)

I've never seen Dragonfly, the only offline builder I've been exposed to is ORB, and even then I can't use that to build areas. It's impossible to put any real-time interaction on it like you can online while the MUD is up and running. I'm sure you can download your own copy of code, build an area there, then test it out before re-downloading the .are file and submitting it elsewhere. But since Jade code isn't used in ORB, I'll keep an eye out for Dragonfly.

I have to agree with Avestifal on the character customization aspect that could be used as a reward for builders. And as far as builder apps go, what about Caretaker apps?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:48 pm 
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Dragonfly is similar to ORB, but far far far more advanced. You also won't be able to find it, because it was custom coded by Celeborn for use with DL. It was tested as a beta for a while but got pushed to the back burner, but had some really awesome features.

Caretaker applications are being stored as well.

As for caretaker customization.. Well, the fact of the matter is, I'm not sure about how to go forward. Technically, you shouldn't get anything but recognition for your work as the author. If you got rewards for building, I could technically go and say, well I've put 3+ years into the game, I'm going to give my character a special sword and auto-level to E400 or something.

The fact is, caretakers aren't allowed to customize their characters or give them anything special (And I need to hear about it if you honestly believe they have, or have evidence), and full-time builders should probably be held to the same standard.

You may or may not know, its been so long since I played, but I have a Tri-Avatar, probably the 5th character ever created and the first ever Cleric, epic level 2, with all mobile equipment ;P Completely done without caretaker help back in the days when I still had time to play.

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