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NEW MINE CODE THREAD EXTRAVAGANZA!
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Author:  Shira [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:28 am ]
Post subject: 
oooo...and you aren't just looking at removing reforge Vogar...you are looking at the complete renovation of the crafting system in order to compensate the amt that is being dug up...otherwise...people will be adept in tons of crafts by the end of the month.

Are YOU thinking outside of the box?!?!?!
Author:  Shira [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Isabelle wrote:
Next, shira --


aside from ok, yes, too much resources, why is the 'thought' of having 1 or two characters to cover what originally took you 8, bad?

its good, isnt it?

if it had always been that way, and we changed it suddenly to have you requiring the 8 characters to mine, would people complain that it was unfair? :)



why is greater player participation in the mud bad?

sure, old school players are now not as elite as before, now they are like even with new players as well, is that bad?



Well Isabelle...my feelings and concerns reflect yours as well when caretakers decided to remove 250 sips juices..the change with the sigils..etc. I was under the assumption that we want to challenge players, not spoon feed them.
Author:  weems [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:35 am ]
Post subject: 
I was talking meteorite, Isabelle. Not mitrill...Is 4k Meteorite ingots a lot? Yes.

And no new people at e400? I can name some pretty high epic level people who are very new. A moderatly intelligent newbie who tagged along with an oldie in epics for a few months could easily hit e400...

And even if they started in a month and reforge was removed, and they spent a year getting to e400, and all the sudden they realize...WELL CRAP...ALL THESE OLD PEOPLE HAVE INCREDIBLY NICE ITEMS

WHY CANT I?

OH WAIT, THEY KILLED REFORGE....SCREWING NEWER PEOPLE OVER
Author:  Isabelle [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:38 am ]
Post subject: 
correct shira, but i'm not yet seeing how more resources necessarily equates into making it less challenging.

and making it more challenging is not the only reason why i take the actions i do, if there is something thats cool, and fun, and many people are involved in it and happy, theres a fine line that must be walked to keep it partially challenging, and still fun
Author:  Vogar Eol [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:38 am ]
Post subject: 
Weems, the changes to reforge would hurt epic level people a lot more then they would hurt lowbies. Lowbies could easily make cool gear for themselves. Why? Because of the increased chance of success in lower level items.

Yes, it would be much harder for them to make their epic gear then when you made yours. Thats the story of DL. People that come after us will never understand how we did the things of the "Old Days" when everything was sooooo much more powerful.

They will look back and say, "Gosh, I wish I was back in the old days of reforge! Then these 100,000 ingots of adamantite would really be something!"

You do realize many of us are still around from the days when 10 ingots of Adamantite made a Magic Visor? TEN INGOTS! Get over yourself Weemster. Times change, the mud changes, and we change with it.

Yacka, yacka, life goes on bro! Yacka, yacka, life goes on!
Author:  Isabelle [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:42 am ]
Post subject: 
weems, the message you replied to, did not mention reforge removal, as i had already agreed with you regarding some of your ideas for fixing reforge, i did mention an increased cost for reforge however, as per vogars idea


ignore the numbers for a moment, do you have any issue with it costing more for a reforge?

it costs what, nothing for a reforge right now? 150 ingots, takes a few people, an hour?

i think we believe the same thing, you are just pre-occupied with other thoughts at the moment :)
Author:  weems [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:44 am ]
Post subject: 
Too bad the magic visors are TERRIBLE now.

An e400 meteorite piece of crafted gear, will never be terrible unless enchanted horribly wrong...Or unless Celeborn revamps the entire crafting system...Do you see this happening? I certainly don't. He wants to work on PvB.
Author:  weems [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:46 am ]
Post subject: 
Isabelle wrote:
weems, the message you replied to, did not mention reforge removal, as i had already agreed with you regarding some of your ideas for fixing reforge, i did mention an increased cost for reforge however, as per vogars idea


ignore the numbers for a moment, do you have any issue with it costing more for a reforge?

it costs what, nothing for a reforge right now? 150 ingots, takes a few people, an hour?

i think we believe the same thing, you are just pre-occupied with other thoughts at the moment :)


I believe that I prefer reforge staying 156 ingots...Just those ingots take a *LOT* more effort to get. If meteorite wasnt pouring out of the ground, it would be balanced. If Celeborn down tweaks the numbers by a lot, it becomes fine again.

Down tweaking instead of removing/nerfing reforge also has the added benefit of keeping blue diamond jewelry hard to forge.
Author:  Vogar Eol [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:50 am ]
Post subject: 
Shira, why is being able to addept crafts quickly (by having lots of resources around) a bad thing? Do epic levelers have problems finding mobs to kill? Why should crafters have problems finding resources? Can you not reach crowning range in under a month? Yes you can. Its actually easier now then it has ever been.

Why then should Addepting a craft skill take longer then it does to tri-av? It shouldn't, not and be fair. However, just because you're addept of a skill does not mean you don't still have to work to gain an exceptional item of such and such a level. Or for that matter to find a resource so you can mine it from the ground. But then, just because your tri-av doesn't mean you have a slay command to help you level either.

To me, the only thing that really needs tweaking is the pop rate from Primary, Specialism, and Mastery. I would say Mastery should be about 99%, Specialism should be about 33%, and Primary should be about 3% pop/gain rates. Based on the way we currently have crafting work, that would logically be fair.

However, I am willing to bet this post gets lost in the flood of other reactionary notes. I would not be surprised if this topic goes till about 10 pages.
Author:  Shira [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:51 am ]
Post subject: 
Isabelle wrote:
correct shira, but i'm not yet seeing how more resources necessarily equates into making it less challenging.

and making it more challenging is not the only reason why i take the actions i do, if there is something thats cool, and fun, and many people are involved in it and happy, theres a fine line that must be walked to keep it partially challenging, and still fun


I can assure you, yes mining right now IS fun...heh...you've got people who have never mined before pulling up resources left and right and who may never decide to adept in anything once they have caught on that uh...NOT really needed.

The way the mines STAND now, IS THE problem: If the amt of resources that currently being dug up stands, and there is no change, then you will need to renovate the current crafting system to increase the amt of ingots/gems needed to adept an item. To me, that's sounds like more a waste of time than just adjusting the system that is CURRENTLY being worked on. Now people are talking about removing reforge...remove this...remove that...blah blah blah.

If you allow for the removal of sharpening to reforge an item...we will then use up one of our alts SIMPLY to reforge. You work your rear off to become adepted an craft - and still that's a problem because it's hell getting a masterpiece most of the time, but then you can't reforge it because now you have to learn ANOTHER skill?

One minute we are discussing encourging more fun, now we are talking about making it more difficult again. sigh.

What STILL doesn't make sense is that NON adept miners are MINING up high quality resources AT an alarming rate. THAT should STILL be the issue. =(
Author:  Vogar Eol [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:01 am ]
Post subject: 
Weems on Reforging wrote:
I believe that I prefer reforge staying 156 ingots...Just those ingots take a *LOT* more effort to get. If meteorite wasnt pouring out of the ground, it would be balanced. If Celeborn down tweaks the numbers by a lot, it becomes fine again.


So do you perfer killing a few mobs in a moderately challenging fight for moderate experience gain? Or do you perfer killing one mob, but having it almost kill you EVERY time you had to fight a monster?

If every mob was uber, newbies would just walk away from the game. If anything worthwhile is too hard to mine, newbies will walk away from mining. One has to balance interests between increasing the mud's popularity with new people, and keeping older people interested and challenged.
Author:  weems [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Don't worry Shira, people like Vogar post in its defense, then when they get proven wrong, they act like they had the right idea the whole time. Vogar's simple 5/33/100 thing would be perfectly acceptable to me....Only I would PREFER to see it as...1/20/80.

Amusing thing, I was asking simply for this the whole time, and Vogar IMMEDIATLY opposed it, as if it was some HORRIBLE idea.

This is implied by him saying this

"One of the main issues I have seen vetern miners whining about (and yes they ARE whining) is that someone addept in a Specialism (aka Ore Mining) can pull any single kind of ore, just in smaller ammounts then someone with the Mastery (aka Mitrill Mining)."

This was already posted after clear cut results were drawn up, so it's easy to assume he knew JUST HOW MUCH people were mining, and that its only like maybe...10 - 20% less?

Then later after argueing with people more, he switches attitudes, he says it might need some tweakig..

And now, hes full on saying it should be 5/33/100...

I find this incredibly amusing.
Author:  Amora [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:03 am ]
Post subject: 
I believe.. things will even out.. that this will calm down.. people should just enjoy it.. enjoy the rush of good fortune.. enjoy the game.. you can all think I am naive.. or anything else... but the politics of it all are getting quite insane.. yes we all know that things need to be tweaked etc.. and I am sure Cele and Isa and anyone else that is working on it are... and I know they want our opinion... but.. this is getting out of hand...

game on..
Author:  Isabelle [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:08 am ]
Post subject: 
ok, so - perfect system (most of us will sorta agree upon)

small numbers

------
Old player -

being specialized in mitrill, means you can 'get mitrill' even if its a small amount
not being specialized in it, really remote chance

reforge stays, gets fixed, but some cost on level needs to be there, doesnt need to be extreme, just needs to be there.

- So, ok, those ideas, old school players would say, alright, we can live with that.
------

------
New player, mines for an hour, gets 2 rocks

never mines again, opts to buy instead from the old school players

theres our problem
------

So, i think we need bigger numbers, that way the new miner thinks they are getting something cool, and we need these resources to be useable, they dont need to be mitrill by the tons, but letting them dig up bunches might keep their interest
Author:  weems [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:09 am ]
Post subject: 
Any intelligent player saw the values in mining eventually, Isabelle. This could be shown by the steady but slow influx of new miners in the old mines, I believe there were even threads about it becoming overcrowded.
Author:  Vogar Eol [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:10 am ]
Post subject: 
I personally feel this is like the Gold rush of 1949 in the United States, when the whole world dropped what its doing and ran to prospect for gold. It will likely not last long. To many people are reactionary about it, as they have been with most every major patch or change.

Like I said I feel that 3% for Primary craft, 33% for Specialism, and 99% for Mastery is plenty fair. A 100% granite miner would only pop about 2.97% of what an 100% Diamond miner could pop. A 100% Citrine miner could then mine 32.67% of the gems a 100% Diamond miner could. Such a system would be plenty fair.
Author:  weems [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:11 am ]
Post subject: 
Except that it doesn't take into account that some specialisms are harder to adept than others, and harder to mine than others.

It means the better/rarer the resource it is, the less it is worth trying to adept.
Author:  Vogar Eol [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:17 am ]
Post subject: 
Good point Isabelle. How about 10% 50% 99%? Any miner worth their salt would addept one of the specialism in a very short while, even if it was Sandstone.

Weemster, you are the one turning coat. You have said since testport opened that you think a 100% stone miner should NOT MINE ANY ore or gems. Especially rarer gems and ores.

I specifically asked (sarcastically) in one discussion if you would have us remove Primaries and Specialisms, and just work off Masteries alone, and you said:
Weems on MSN wrote:
Yes, I would


Don't try and paint me in that light that you just did, or my posts will soon have a much more personal tone then they have been.
Author:  Shira [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:21 am ]
Post subject: 
Isabelle, I am happy that miners are flocking in. And yea...when I first went in to mine as a new miner.... I was like nooo way. This is hard!! Then you had the older players (I now stand in the same position) who charge alarming rates for you to get equipment crafted/enchanted because they know you can't craft/enchant yourself.

Ya know what? I DEALT WITH IT and you know what it forced me to do? WORK for what they had. I said, "I want to be such a crafter!!" Wow, it IS terrible of me to say that I think people should work for what they want on this game. Economy was running smooth and it won't anymore.

Damn right I am upset =( I have just lost my business for something I worked my rear off for the last year to gain. WHICH leads me to what I am going to say next - I became a very active player...almost 2 years now since i have started on this game...and every day I got on...I knew that I still had to work hard for what I wanted.


Call me old-fashioned, but spoon feeding this guys is bad news. If it's handed to them, they will get bored with the game and leave. I mean hell, you can only level so much? You only have what...7-8 alts to create, all of which became adepted in crafting items in less than 2 months. What else is there left to do?


ARGUE ON FORUMS....WHHHHEEEEEEEE
Author:  weems [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:21 am ]
Post subject: 
I don't. 1% is PLENTY, which is what I just said. Scroll up. "Only I would PREFER to see it as...1/20/80."....Means if there was 100 possible mitrill ore to be mined, and the stone miner went for it all, would MAYBE get ONE ore.

But thinking now, maybe 1/20/80 IS too high.

Again, I bring up that this system doesn't work because it doesn't take INDIVIDUAL difficulty into account.

Should a Copper miner have the same 33% or 50% ore of a mitrill vein and a meteorite vein?
Author:  Kiasyn [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:27 am ]
Post subject: 
The old system was plenty fun. I found it really damn fun to spend ages mining a wall, then pulling out a few gems and some ores. It took time, yes, but that's what made it MORE fun. -.-;;
Author:  mehownzu [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:46 am ]
Post subject: 
Vogar Eol wrote:
I personally feel this is like the Gold rush of 1949 in the United States


i find it easier to be able to scrape a weighted metal out of a stream than it would be to dig a tunnel underground, find said mineral, and actually extract it without 1) messing the mineral up 2) caving in


IRL they have different techniques to mine different materials. really. someone whos really good at diamonds out of the ground might not be able to pull tin ore out, and vice versa. i think that if you are a good percentage in a material, you should pull it out more. i also think that if you have a bad percentage in a material you should pull it out less. way way less.




The reason i posted this thread was so cele would have a place to start in altering the mining code. isa, do you know why i named it what i did in the first place? does it make sense now? :wink:



more random thoughts:

1) reforge is fine
2) mining is fine -- the mineral amounts pulled out need adjusted

2.a) maybe you could make this into a rp thing? since we can dig anywhere now its like finding a crapton of ore that we couldnt get in the mines. it really just cant stay like this though. the economy would crap out and the only thing worth a crap would be emeralite, since i havent seen any in the mines yet.
Author:  Dravo [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:55 am ]
Post subject:  would memory constraints work with this? charts included
how about giving each resource typy its own mastery specialization primary model say for instance, if your 100% in copper you have little to no chance to mine mitrill or above, and your chance to mine the ore types goes up as you get into the less rare ores, same would be if the same miner is mining gems

if you combine this with no skill gain on misses, but make more common resources have like a 20% chance to mine with no skill so it is possible to begin raising resources, you would have no chance of mining the rare resources until you have a sufficient skill in the lower resources, then your chance for the higher resources would be very small

as you start learning more rare resources, it makes it a little easier to mine the rare ones, eventually your skill in the rare ones will start going up. but each resource would have to have it's own percentage chart that it uses for every other resource

ok, after every resource has this, these percentages would have to be multiplied by the current percentages that the player has.

if this idea sounds doable, don't know how much memory it would take, but if it sounds doable I could go into more detail with charts and stuff, then people could comment on the percentages and tweak them or whatever before it is tested

One possibility if memory constraints are too high for this would be to create a chart that has every possible combination. Save this chart to the hard drive, and have it accessed the first time you mine. Then it would only have to access the chart to find new numbers whenever your skill increases.

system would only work if skill is only gained on successfull attempt

all 3 charts have player skill in copper


player is mining primary, copper
player | since primary to primary ore difficulty would be low
skill |100% chance to mine
-----------------------------------------------------------
0 |10 --have to have a percent chance to get started on the
lower rarity ores
10 |10
20 |20
30 |30
40 |40 this is the chance to actually mine the ore successfully
50 |50
100 |99
|
|
play is mining specialization iron

player |since primary to specialization and ore not so rare difficulty would be average
skill |50
-----------------------------------------------------------
10 |5
20 |10
30 |15
40 |20 this is the chance to actually mine the ore successfully
50 |25
100 |50
|
|
player is mining mastery

player |player is mining mastery citrine
skill |20
-----------------------------------------------------------
10 |2
20 |4
30 |6
40 |8
50 |10
100 |20
|
|

All numbers are just examples, they would have to be worked out to a point where it worked.

there would be three charts for each ore and the percentages would get progressively less as the rarity of the resource goes up
Author:  Isabelle [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:07 am ]
Post subject: 
Many good suggestions, since i know what the limitations are going to be, i'll just agree with vogar and weems that we can keep the percentages low.

As for addressing getting newer players interested in mining, or explaining to current players that mining can be fun, or a good alternative to 'buying', maybe more things can be added --

quests which involve the player mining up minerals
(like player gets quest to mine up bloodstone - miners will never find this mineral - except when doing the quest, and the quest will say, ok, you have a 5% chance everytime you dig to uncover this rock.

quests which involve the player killing specific creatures (encounters) which may have to do with a storyline
(such as having opposing mining cities that hate each other, and having mining encounters with the opposing cities miners) (kill 15 kender miners)

treasure maps for underground treasure


If during the course of doing these quests, the player gets interested in mining, then cool :)
Author:  Celeborn [ Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:44 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm replying to notes as I read them, one by one :P Just to add a bit to this discussion in the form of game mechanics:

This is my /intended/ way of how things will function now. currently, resources aren't properly destroyed, and there is no way to get the better gemstones with anything other than a special or exceptional success (explained below).

When you mine, your skill is rolled up to three times. For example, if you where mining(75%)->cookies(50%)->fudge-cookies(25%), it would be split up like this:

Roll A: one dice of 100 (1D100) minus five, if you roll it below your first skill Mining(75%), you achieve a common success. If you roll a common success, you can roll B.

Roll B: one dice of 125 (1D125), if you roll it below your second skill Cookies (50%), you achieve a special success. If you roll a special success, you can Roll C.

Roll C: one dice of 150 (1D50), if you roll it below your last skill fudge-cookies 25%, you achieve an exceptional success.

A failure will let you mine up nothing, and makes you ruin a considerable amount (if not all) of resources (except for stone, its there to annoy you. BWOEHAHA).

A common success will let you mine up a lot of simple ore/gem types, or a limited amount (or none) of valuable ore/gem types. Each common, you ruin what you would otherwise dig up if you rolled a special or exceptional success.

A special success allows you to mine up more of a specific kind of resource. For example, more gems, or more ores. You ruin what you would otherwise dig up if you rolled an exceptional success.

An exceptional success allows you to mine up a lot more of a specific resource, for example, gold. This lets you dig up resources without destroying any.

I hope this clears up what Intend things to be like. *reads on* :P
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