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 Post subject: Mining (Pros, Cons and General Dissatisfaction Comments)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:35 pm 
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I thought that since mining's been such a heavily debated topic, on a smaller scale, that we should open the comments, suggestions, pros, cons, bitches and complaints section on this subject.

Considering how my thread on assassins became so heated, I'd like to see the same amount of responses but within the tones set forth by the forum administrators.

Rant away :)


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 Post subject: Mining
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:47 pm 
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I wouldn't say that I'm a completely experienced miner, but I am experienced enough to know about the ways of the mines and the do's, don'ts and common courtesy issues that arise from being in the mines.

I think we need to re-examine the mining rules, pertaining to both past and present changes that have involved not only regular miners but the new miners as well. Alot of people seem to come up with their own rules, but as a general issue, etiquette within the mines seems to be a big problem. I know Weemster, Sardonyx, Lingolas and a few of the veteran miners (this being people who've been deep into the mines for quite a while, not people who just recently went in about 3 or 4 months ago) can attest to some of the things I'm about to bring up.

People come in and automatically assume they can mine in the room with you, without any regard to you being there first. This poses a major issue where respect is involved. Alot of the time, I'll be mining and someone will either enter my level that I spent all morning mining out, or the room that I spent the majority of time either getting into or mining out all possible directions. I've been in enough of these situations to basically say 'oh screw this, I don't have the time' and either leave and not come back into the mines, or leave and not come back into that level. People have to realize that when you come onto a level that someone's been on for a while, the person who was there first has alot more say in whether you can mine there or not. I think if something isn't done, we're going to keep having people assume they can do whatever they please in a room or a level where someone has spent countless hours either getting to or mining out.

Second, I've had people collapse shafts that I spent time mining through because either they mined onto my level from above, or snuck their way in from an already-mined level and plowed their way through. This, to be honest, pisses me off. I've never collapsed a shaft on someone and never will...why? Because it doesn't take alot for them to get through it. I think that people need to realize that collapsing shafts on people already in that room is going to invoke some form of anger, and they need to re-think doing it.

Third, a veteran miner below shalestone will tell you there's a certain way to mine out a level. I won't go into specs, but the general is that if there's a pattern already being made throughout the mine in that layer and past it, you don't go and mine out a whole new level...this takes the balance out of the mines and makes it alot harder for those who spent hours making that pattern to keep things the way they are. For instance, I'll be mining on 550 and someone will mine to 530, then mine all of that level out. There's a certain way to mine out shalestone and below and it's not like you would be mining out sandstone and clay...you generally go every other level, leaving that one level untouched.

I know that new people are going to come into the mines to gain resources, but there's a right way and a wrong way to go about it. You need to have a little more respect where people, who have already been in the mines alot longer than you have, are concerned. To have to go to an immortal with someone whose decided to be a total jackass about it, well, is pretty silly. People need to understand there are certain unwritten and written rules about the mines and if they go against them, chances are that the experienced miners will give you a piece of their mind.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 7:14 pm 
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The main problem here is there's only one mine. If there were more than one, that cuts down the intrusion by half, or simply expand the existing mine and/or have more than one entrance. There's just too many people needing to mine.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 8:46 pm 
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Mining, that boring but necessary pastime.

Yes I have had players come into my room and start mining without a word to me. I have had them come in, grab some ore and leave. All this could be prevented if they just read the note board in the mines or by just by being polite to others. I also do not see anything that can be done about this except POLITLEY telling them the written rules on this conduct. The written rules state the rights of a miner to the room he is mining quite clearly. But it does not give rights beyond that point. I have spent the morning digging a shaft several hundred feet, filled my portals, and have to go process some ore to make room, upon my return, I find someone mining at the bottom of the shaft I dug. But once I leave the mines, I have no claim to that room at the bottom, much less the shaft, tunnel, or level I dug out. I must then ask them for permission to continue, yeah I did all the work, but they don’t know that. I say this because I have been on the other end of that scenario. I have logged on for the first time that day to find the mines overrun with miners and must walk around for some time to find an unoccupied area to mine. Then after finding one and mining a few, someone comes in and starts chewing me out for stealing his tunnel. Sorry, I didn’t know, they didn’t leave a sign when they left. I just leave and start my hunt again, or decide that today is not a good day to mine. Miners can be so grumpy!

On collapsing shafts, I think that the mine collapse command should be removed. Collapsed sections take little effort to dig through, so they do not serve their purpose of blocking your tunnel off from the rest of the mine, but does lead to their misuse by others. Collapses also happen when players mine deeper than they can reinforce. I see no way to fix this, but players not helping inexperienced miners to reach the pillar within the shale can help reduce it. If they have to work to reach it, they should have the necessary skill once they do. The other kind of collapse I have seen is by experienced miners who could care less about reinforcing rooms, or they are botting their mining chores. Botting is illegal, but that don’t stop some from doing it anyway. Lastly we come to those who collapse the mines to annoy other players. Which brings me to my opening statement, lets remove the mine collapse command.

On how to mine. Yes there is a pattern to mine the most resources with the least amount of digging. It would help if the older miners would explain such things to new miners, rather than yelling at them, telling them how stupid they are, etc when they make a mistake and mine in the wrong area or level. Not all players are observant enough to see this pattern for themselves, so it would help the older miners to inform them rather than treating such things as a great secret. For a new player, the mines are one of the least friendly places they can visit or get help with. To many grumpy dwarves I guess.

Rules of mining. The written rules on mining are clearly stated for anyone who can read a note board.
The unwritten rules are not rules at all, but a common code followed by most of the older miners. As they are unwritten, how can we expect someone new to the mines to be aware of them, unless an experienced miner informs them.

In closing, get rid of the mine collapse command. The rest of the problems in the mine come down to common courtesy between players, and a willingness to help those new to the mines.

Aireal The absent-minded Elf


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 Post subject: what i think about the mine.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:43 pm 
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i've been mining for quite along time now and i've encountered all kind of miners with all kind of attitudes.

Here's my personal view on mining:
Only one mine that the whole mud has to share.
Only one starting room at the pillar :( Think that there should be multiple starting rooms.
Mining laws are kept in the law commands, not many novice miners are aware of the rules. I suggest we make a sign and stick it at the pillar and the mining entrance with the mining laws.

Most of the people that i've encountered are respectful and usually always ask before they beginning mining, but once in awhile there's an idiot or a true newbie who will do something stupid.

My most frustrating thing about mining is the fact that people collapse rooms that they did not mine out themselves. I mined all the way down to 1100 ft, found my first wall of diamond after 8 hrs of mining. switched on diamond mining alt and head to the mine to find out that my hardwork tunnel is collapsed by someone. Sometimes the mine gets too hectic it is almost impossible to figure out where the entrace is to redig.

When come into a newly dug room, before you start mining, make sure you ask outload if anyone is in the room because sometimes people are invis and you may not see them. 2ndly, make sure you wait a bit before mining because some people may have switched alts and are heading to their room. Should the person who is mining there not responding, you should not mine in that room. You do not mine in someone's room without their permission period.

The mine belongs to everyone and not anyone in specific. You can not claim more than one room. You can only claim the room that you dug out or rooms that you dug into.

for example: i
* if i mine into room B, i own that room, but i would give up room A that i was previously in.

* If i mine into a cave that contains room B, C, D, E. I own all those 4 rooms. No one should be able to mine those 4 new rooms without my permission. HOwever, after i finish stripping all the resources from those rooms, i would go back to owning only one room.
Basically, the idea is that a miner can only claim the room that the miner is in and the resources that the miner has discovered.

The race for EG:

Lets say you mined straight down to 990ft and then someone goes to 970ft and mine west to create their own shaft. You may feel that this person is taking advantage of your work but this is perfectly legal. You are responsible for collapsing your own shaft if you do not want people to free load of your work. This is why mine collapse was introduced.

What if someone accidentally or intentially mined into/intersect your shaft, do they have rights to mine in your shaft also (not your room)? I'm not sure on this part because I don't think the mining law talks about this. Caretakers, what do you think?

Lets say you mined down to 1130ft, then logged off and went to lunch for 3 hrs. You logged back on and see that someone else is mining in your room. Sorry, but you've lost your shaft/room. You can not claim rooms/shaft when you're offline. This is not the same as switching between alts. This is similar to claiming a supermob when you're not on...ridiculous. Celeborn made the game for everyone who are logged on to play, if you're not on then you're not part of the game.

scenario: 2 people accidentally/intentionally mined into one single room.
The two individual share the resources if they can compromise on who gets what. If they are unablet to compromise then it's free for all. quickly grab what you can.

When you yell out to someone in the mine, dont expect to have them yell back at you because sometimes they don't want to yell is simply to avoid getttin summoned by leaches. New miners are usually unaware of this and sometimes think that the other miners are being unfriendly.

Spam: sometimes when you are mining with a group of people, you are badly spammed. Sadly there isnt much to prevent this besides the use of some clients. I would like to see celeborn do something to ease the spam from minning. Seriously do we really need to see "Matthew digs up shalestone (9) and drop it on a stack?"

Bots: lets all admit it, most of us don't stare at the screen while we are mining for obvious reasons. If we are not chatting we do other stuff like surfing the web, checking email, programming triggers, or trying to mine and watching the tv at the same time. Others simply don't stare at the screen because it hurts their eyes. I know that the mud does not approve botting while mining, but the current mining system encourages exactly that. I would like to see a new mining system that does not rely on triggers and discourages botting. Besides, when someone log on and watch triggers for hrs is not the way.

" you find nothing "
This is the biggest **** !!!
you spend 8-14 hrs of mining, finally you spot a wall of diamond north. You mine north with your diamond miner and the messeage that you recieve is " you find nothing!" This is perfectly fine, but what's frustrating is that your diamond skill did not raise by any and the diamonds in the wall is now gone. This is like a catch-22. You can't mine diamond (succesfully or unsucessfully) because your skill is low, but you can't raise your skill because you're not sucessfully, or unsuccessfully mining them.
I'm not sure if this made alot of sense, but you'll understand my point when you try to learn diamonds or jades...

suggestions:
mitrill/adamantite mining picks need to be upgraded. They do last longer than bronze picks, but they don't last long enough to make them useful. As a result, adamantites/mitrill are not worth using for picks. I don't know if this is intended or not, but this is how it is.

since we can fix almost anything that we wear, even an piece of armplate made out of light, why can't we fix picks? I know this option is probably not very useful to bronze picks, but it would be very useful for meteorite/adamantite picks. Besides, it would make things a bit more realistic.

Ocardus and i already pointed this out, but it would be nice to have 2 more additional starting rooms at the pillar in shalestones.

create more mines. I like the idea of having the mines on the world map in mountains and such. I don't know how challenging the coding may be, but it would be very cool . for example: ores and gems can only be found at mountains, clays near rivers and etc...

the ability to purchase a mining patch for your citadel. wouldn't it be cool if you can purchase or rent a small mining room in your citadel and you can simply mine down in private away from all the chaos? (i know this is a crazy idea)


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 Post subject: Re: Mining Etiquette
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:34 pm 
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While I await even more responses on this issue, many of them from the higher-ups, I'd like to add in my feelings on a few things that were mentioned after my last posting.

I agree that once you log off and are gone for more than 5 minutes, all rights to the shaft/room that you felt you deserved are gone. If you're just switching characters to either strip for resources, reinforce, or move into that room, then anyone who enters should be forced to leave all together. You can't control something when you're not there.

I agree that the mines should either be expanded to accompany the new influx of miners, make it possible to mine in the same fashion on the world map as you can in the actual area for Deep Mine, or allow people who own pieces of property to purchase a mining section for their own resources. I fully believe this would cut out on all the problems and would be subject to the subject posted by Lingolas about protecting personal property...perhaps put a manhole cover or something over it that's lockable? or allow for the mine to be attached to the underlayerings of the property they currently own?

I also agree that the mine collapse command is pointless. As it stands, not alot is needed to dig through, and those who come into the room and collapse in your direction is just plain f'ing irritating. Besides walking in and taking walls/resources, having your wall collapsed by some newbie is a leading cause of discontent amongst the mines...that, and the inability to follow the pattern that yields the least work for the most resources.

Perhaps a sign at the pillar would be good and a force to view the sign upon room entry would fix this. Increase the abilities of those who spent all their time and energy to get to the pillar. This, however, doesn't cover the ones who happened to lollygag their way down via someone else's hard work to dig out the shaft from 150 to 550. Maybe once a method is reached that covers those people, we can go further with this venture.

The main reason alot of experienced miners don't allow for others to know about the pattern is, well, because they spent alot of time figuring it out on their own and feel it's their right to obtain such information because they're the ones who spent all their hard work to get that information. I'm pretty sure even if newbies are notified of such a pattern to be followed once you enter into a certain section of the mines, they'll still violate it for certain reasons only known (and makes sense) to them.

I agree on the following issues: a) more than one starting room at the pillar...perhaps up, down? b) giving incentives to those who actually spent time to get to the pillar, c) allowing for people to report botters to a JC/Caretaker for prosecution (with log for proof), d) a way for us to fix mining picks that are above a certain base material, like mitrill/adamantite/emeralite (all of which must be exceptional quality), e) set the timer to five minutes before allowing someone else to mine there, f) the ability to erect a sign via a command that cannot be removed by anyone but the sign builder to show their claim in cases of switching alts/moving into another room, g) allowing people who have spent time in mining out a level to claim that level (using a log command to show the room, level and person who mined it out - include all alternate characters on that account seeing as we all use more than one person to mine out a room/strip a wall), h) removing the excess commands if you mine with more than one person (we honestly don't want and have no need to see what someone else is mining out, even if they are with us), i) change the pop rate to where if it says there's gems, we actually get them...it's pointless for us to see 'You detect hidden traces of mitrill' or something and even at 100%, we get nothing. It wastes time, energy, and frustrated miners.

I think if things aren't changed, then there's going to be alot more in the way of discontent, both openly expressed and reported to immortals...this is unacceptable.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 5:38 pm 
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I've decided to move this to the Craft section.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:09 am 
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Just a suggestion - implement a simple post sign that can be in mine only and each character can have one only.

Write something onto it, erect it in your mining room or start of the shaft and voila.

"Mihey was here."

Not an ideal solution, but should be helpful in most of matters...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:53 am 
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sounds good, but we should make it so that only the person who dug into that room can erect the sign.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:23 pm 
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[quote]Woodcarving (100.00%) > Furniture (0.00%) > Signs (0.00%)

Nr Item Skill Cost
:: :::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::: ::::::
1 A sign reading 'ƒÄühvÂ

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Kiasyn Kelle


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:12 pm 
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[quote="kiasyn"][quote]Woodcarving (100.00%) > Furniture (0.00%) > Signs (0.00%)

Nr Item Skill Cost
:: :::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::: ::::::
1 A sign reading 'ƒÄühvÂ

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Quintos Aelon, Progenitor of the Aelon line


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:00 am 
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Maybe Celly can make a new kind of sign just for mining that can only be picked up or sacrificed by the person who placed it. It could be placed with a place command... Just a thought.

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 Post subject: i have a problem with the sign thing
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:04 am 
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can't you guys get along? :) I mean, its not so hard to share, if someone comes in, and is polite, why not let them mine in a different direction than you are heading?

Yeah, i know, you are afraid of them stealing your resources, but since most of you use triggers anyways, its possible to make triggers which analyze the type of resource you mine up, and immediately pick up those resources and place them in a portal. (While ignoring the granite and such) I know, because i have them :)

I do not see how having a sign in a room, with you, is any different than saying, hey, i dug this one out friend, and i'm feeling rather like a hermit, can you leave this spot?

And if the purpose of the sign, is to login in the morning, throw up a bunch of signs, then come back later in the day to continue what you were doing, thats not very fair to the other players of the mud, who were actually mining, while you were out shopping for corsets.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:17 am 
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OR we could just have more mines. But I guess that's too simple and effective to implement, isn't it?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:42 pm 
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wth is a corset?

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Kiasyn Kelle


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