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 Post subject: Powerleveling.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:19 am 
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Powerleveling hurts everybody. For now, I am only going to talk about pre-epic leveling, as I feel it is the more unbalanced of the two aspects of leveling (pre-epic and epic). I may touch on epic as well towards the end, but for the most part please assume I am talking about pre-epic.

And anybody who says I am 'complaining' or 'whining' in this thread can honestly go to hell. I'm putting this thread in general chatter because it's less of an ideas topic and more of a general discussion into the nature of some powerleveling techniques. There may be some fixes/ideas in here, but it's not really the goal of the thread.

Why does powerleveling hurt everybody? Because difficulty is adjusted as an average between the person who uses the powerleveling techniques, and somebody who plays in a very raw fashion. The result is that the people who play by the books get a huge handicap, and powerlevelers have zero trouble at all.

Before I continue, I feel that I should probably define the word 'powerleveling' for the context of my discussion, so nobody gets confused or drawn into some superfluous arguement about semantics. Right now I am using the word to mean anybody who uses ANY equipment other than what can be obtained by mobiles which you can kill yourself, as well as any techniques that can be used to gain an unfair (by development standards) advantage, either by getting help from other people, or some other system. I am kind of melding the word powerleveling with another term for RPG's called 'twinking', which basically means pumping up a low level character with items that they would normally never be able to obtain. Anyway, for example...Using a clever technique you invented using a current skill to confuse a mobile and gain the upper hand is not powerleveling. However, logging an alt to subdue a huge quantity of mobiles, is. I also classify the over-usage of imbalanced player skills as powerleveling, which I will go into later.

Anyway, back to what I was saying. I think I was about to make a point how powerleveling hurts the people who abuse it, as well. Yes. It hurts the powerlevels as well because the benefits are so large that it waters down the game. The difficulty becomes absurdly easy, because the leveling has to stay fair for people who choose not to use the special techniques.

Common powerleveling things are:
1. Crafted items. They provide massive benefits far and away better than any mobile items, except maybe below level 10, and special circumstances like scarabs of insanity. By the time you hit even 25, the crafted gear allows you to kill almost anything with ease.
2. Charm. This is a bad one. You can gather swarms of mobiles to kill everything for you in a matter of seconds. The limit of charmies you can have at any given time is either infinite, or wayyy up there, to the point that it doesn't even matter.
3. Elemental jugs. These things will carry you to level 20 no problem. You can use them an infinite amount of times, and they summon up a level 10 elemental that beats the crap out of mobiles very very easily, up until about level 20 like I said.
4. Although not necessarily common, you still see people buffing up pre-epics, or subdueing mobiles for them from time to time. I won't go too deep into this, because it's fairly obvious whats wrong with it.

I could probably keep going on this note for quite a while, but those four are probably the biggest problem in my opinion. Crafted gear is really the crux, as the other three can be fixed fairly simply, with the exception of maybe number four.

Crafted gear allows there to be this MASSIVE variance between somebody who uses it and somebody who doesn't. The difference is so stupidly large that I'm not even sure how to approximate a possible fix for this. I actually am beggining to think that it would be a good idea to disallow making crafted items below level 50, and forcing the level of all current pre-50 items to 50. But this will never happen, too many people would hate this with a passion.

The charmed mobs can easily be fixed by putting a cap on the number of charmed creatures you have. One or two at most is probably more than fair. It still makes the spell useful, but prevents people from amassing an army. Considering all the other summon spells in existance, and the consideration of pets, I would put the cap at one.

Elemental jugs? Can't drink 'em unless you are at least level 15, and only one sip per jug before it dies. Fixed.

Anyway, I know some of you may call me a hypocrite, because I have used some of these tactics almost every time I level a tri-av (crafted eq, jugs), but just because I do it doesn't mean I don't think of it as bad. I can't really not do it because it puts me at such a huge time disadvantage compared to everybody else. I would much prefer if you couldn't use these cheesy techniques, though. Maybe they will get fixed some day.

As for number four, all we can do is ask eachother to please not do it, ever. Theres nothing worse than seeing somebody getting powerleveled.

Yes, that includes heals over a tell.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:40 am 
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...I actually am beggining to think that it would be a good idea to disallow making crafted items below level 50, and forcing the level of all current pre-50 items to 50. But this will never happen, too many people would hate this with a passion.


As a crafter I hate this idea with a passion. However, i would support it because I too recognize the problem and what's best for me isnt always best for the mud.

The jug thing is rediculous, i got my alt to lvl 19 pretty easily using only academy gear with no weapons. I support the complete removal of the jugs. Not even one single elemental. Lowbies should stick to the good ol iron sword!

Charm. Never tried this. Thanks for the idea

number 4. I have no interest in this one. I dont subdue any mobs for anyone and never asked anyone to subdue any for me. I don't think i really care if other people are taking advantage of this though. Isn't this illegal?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:44 am 
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lingolas wrote:
number 4. I have no interest in this one. I dont subdue any mobs for anyone and never asked anyone to subdue any for me. I don't think i really care if other people are taking advantage of this though. Isn't this illegal?


Yes, but that doesn't stop everybody.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:23 am 
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as per ideas weems was tossing my way -->


epic internal group levels should not differ by more than 100 -150 epic levels, ever


casting spells on lower levels - same rules
with the added epics can not cast buffs on non epic players
and the added level 50 players cannot cast 'powerful buffs' on pre level 30 players


subdue = gone


jugs = ditto, everything you said
i would boost it to be like 25 min level - and i'd like to be able to edit the actual creature being summoned, atm the creature that appears is hard coded.

epic dungeons - i need a way to make them immune to sleep and charm, the whole walking around with 20 charmed epic mobs, and 1 hit killing anything in your path - crap


the whole peaceful / pvp interaction - total crap, if i were in a bad mood, those peaceful players involved in the recent pvp powerlevelling would be sitting on an empty account.


if you leave the epic dungeons (logout - whatever) you are returned to dunly when you log back in.


and if the epic dungeon is empty upon being kicked out, then it resets to level 1-5


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:37 am 
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having charm on 'one' creature at a time is also a consideration


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:09 am 
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Why would you need to make them immune to charm right off the bat? I dont use charm at all, but the spell is there for gods sakes..much like elementals and summons..at least let ppl use it..just reduce the amount or weaken it somehow so that its not too powerful.

And Weems, your problem is with everyone powerlevelling? not just newbies who have something to learn? I myself have a pretty big portal filled with lots of combination items and in fact most of those arent crafted eq, nevertheless it would be seriously annoying not to be able to use them. Jugs i agree with because (for newbies) its a crutch that they need to get rid of in order to learn something, and ive said it for ages..but jugs i use...you know why? Because I dont have anything to learn anymore from pre-epic levelling. For me it is time based...a jug allows me to complete my char just that much faster...i could most certainly do without it. Ive stressed to lots of ppl asking me for eq that they can find lots of things in the areas of their level, and this i definitely want to promote...however turning off pre-50 crafted gear just to emphasize this I find preposterous actually...just to keep safe the few actual newbies who start crafting in order to improve their own levelling experience. 2ndly, on the crafting thing is that ive been levelling a few alts recently, and tho i dont usually group with ppl, ive seen quite a few chars walking about...and their EQ IS CRAP! Not OMG hes powerlevelling!, not hmm hes doing alright, not thats ok, not pretty bad...CRAP! I cant emphasize that enough :) Theyre all mostly still wearing newbie eq right up into Arma, so much so that i dont understand how ppl manage to move forward...i guess its the grouping. So imo you certainly cant say that craft eq as a powerlevelling tool is widespread at least (If you are).
So conclusion:
Just power down charmies, dont make them useless
Prevent jugs being used by any non-epic..at all!
Leave craft eq as is it is..its abs. not a problem imo
And promote exploration (once again! :P ) for eq (I myself might be posting a list of areas ppl should explore for newbie gear)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:01 pm 
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Silvanos, maybe you like tri-av'ing a character in three days flat, with zero to no resistance from mobiles. Maybe because you feel that there is nothing left for you to learn from them, like you said. I personally, after have recently done it, feel that it cheapens the whole experience. I don't even feel proud of my character, Terminus, because it has taken barely any effort to get him where he is.

However, regardless...I don't feel newbies have anything to learn the mechanics of pre-epic leveling. The techniques, skills, attitude, mindset, are all completely different from how epics is.

Epic is all about getting the highest end crafted gear, and grinding in epics. You notice a lot of epic people simply don't know what to do with themselves anymore. I feel that epic areas would completely change the game into something infinitly better. Maybe it wouldn't matter as much if pre-epic levelling is cheapend if there were tasks to do as an epic character.


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 Post subject: Powerleveling and crafting
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:20 pm 
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Weems

For the most part, I agree with you. I have complained about powerleveling for a long time, most of you older players know why, I won't cover old ground here. Some of the most abused methods of powerleveling have been dealt with already.
Charm, Subdueing, Buffing and Elemental jugs should also be fixed, I agree. However, the removal of crafted items from non-epic gameplay is not a good idea. For me at least, pre-epic play is the game, epics is just something to do with a character you are fond of after completing the game. If I had to wait till epic to craft, I would quit playing. I solo, and crafted gear helps the solo player level without dying a lot, but does not make it too easy to level.
At one time DL was all about getting the best mob gear, which was fine if you knew where to get the good stuff, but most new players do not know. They had to join a guild to find out, or an older player needed to take them under their wing and teach them. Getting rid of pre-epic crafting would be a giant step back to those days, and some of that good mob gear don't exist anymore.
Below level 25 you will find a lot of mob gear that is better than what can be crafted, at those levels you will find me wearing a mix of reforged mob gear and crafted items. Above level 25, crafted gear gets better than what you get off mobs, with the rare exception. However I do not see a problem with crafted eq at this level either. I have seen players with better eq than I have, dying in groups in the same areas I solo in. If you don't know how to play, crafted eq can only help so much.
If the other problems with powerleveling are dealt with, crafted eq will not be a problem as the effects are cumulitive with the above listed powerleveling tactics.

Arureal
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:25 pm 
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Hrm, I would have to disagree with you on the difference between crafted equipment and mobile equipment. It is tremendous, especially when done correclty. Starts at like level 20. Or even 1, if you decided to take an emeralite mining pick along with you while leveling, heh.

Honestly, I already stated specifically in my thread that I wasn't trying to get it put in, and that I was just throwing it out there, so I'm not entirely sure why people are jumping on me about it, as it was completely beside the point of the thread. The point of the thread is to just open peoples minds into accepting the fact that it IS, indeed, powerleveling, regardless of whether or not they choose to do it.

It cheapens the game at the pre-epic leveling standpoint. You can fix some of the symptoms, but the disease will always be there.

The real fix is moving the game content away from pre-epic, and over to epics, where every character inevitably ends up. Shrug, thats what I feel.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:22 pm 
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Perhaps we should up mobile equipment to better compete with crafted equipment and adjust the mobiles accordingly.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:22 am 
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I personally dont see lvl 15 and below with crafted equ as a problem. I dont know how much things have changed, but while i was still active, it was better to get mob's equ than to get crafted equ at such a low level. As for an emeralite pick as a weapon, what percent of the mud population actually have an emeralite pick? for lvl 15-50, I think that a combination of crafted equ and mob's equ is best and if that's the case what's wrong with it? For example, even though i can make bracelets, necklaces, and glasses, It is a bit pointless to make them any lesser than lvl 50. Despite my town, i still support a complete removal of crafted equ for levels below 50. Crafted equ are power and so they are more appropriate with epic characters. Without non epic level crafted equ, players would be forced to use mob equ. This gives monster's equ more purpose and also it helps stablizing the difficulty level of NPCs. I have voiced my concern over the difficulty range of NPCs a long time ago but no one seemed to pay any attention. If no action is taken, i predict that NPCs will get stronger and stronger to accomodate well established players with powerful lowbies elevating the difficulty gradient. This will make it extremely difficult for a new players to progress.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:27 am 
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personally, i will level up to tri-av with the same eq i pick up when i first start my eq, i have no need for crafted eq. I believe it's the skill that makes the player (for the most part) not the eq. I also agree that jugs r a bit overpowered. Charming i can also see being a bit overpowered but i never really use it to level up (altho i should try it once). lastly, i havnt seen the subdue powerleveling being used in a while, i can understand removing it to prevent powerleveling, but those in epics also get punished b/c they cant use it either. anyway, thats my 2 cents


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:11 am 
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Kiasyn wrote:
Perhaps we should up mobile equipment to better compete with crafted equipment and adjust the mobiles accordingly.
This doesn't solve anything, unless the mobiles are made more difficult with the equipment. By strengthening the rest of the equipment, we make the game too easy for anyone who doesn't have crafted equipment. If we make mobile equipment on par with their crafted counterparts and also increase the difficulty of mobiles, we will have a (relatively) balanced system that isn't too easy.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:29 pm 
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I agree with lingolas about removing crafted eq BUT we shouldnt remove crafted weapons for those lvls cause some classes say...Clerics or Mages as first class have such weapons that are hard to find weapons for (and id know cause i gotta druid using staves) But in order to even it out where they aren't 'overpowering' They should get absolutely NO enchantment or extremely little for those of us practicing crafts and they shouldnt be able to be sharpen. Also if they are 50 and lower they should always fail when you try anything higher than bronze,2nd best wood,and so on. I've had maybe only one character make it without crafted weapons so far and it was not exactly fun dieing 6times in a row case i didn't do enough damage to kill the mob before it killed me.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:16 pm 
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Kamseki wrote:
and they shouldnt be able to be sharpen


any weapon can be sharpened/reinforced... maybe you should have to get some kind of like, sharpening stone, which costs alot, to be able to do it...
as for reinforcing weapons, you probably would have to buy some kind of thing to like, coat it with, to make it harder to do more damage.

wheeeeeeeeeee

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:29 pm 
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Quintos wrote:
Kiasyn wrote:
Perhaps we should up mobile equipment to better compete with crafted equipment and adjust the mobiles accordingly.
This doesn't solve anything, unless the mobiles are made more difficult with the equipment. By strengthening the rest of the equipment, we make the game too easy for anyone who doesn't have crafted equipment. If we make mobile equipment on par with their crafted counterparts and also increase the difficulty of mobiles, we will have a (relatively) balanced system that isn't too easy.


Yes, thats what I meant by adjusting the mobiles

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:08 pm 
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Why not make equipment found in mobs random like in most MMORPGs?
That way you might get junk, or you might get something worthwhile?

Charming is a skill only certain classes can learn right? Well, adjust the number of mobs you can have in tow and it should balance out pretty quickly.

Elemental jugs? Yeah, they say one sip so thats all there oughta be. A one time use creature.

Crafted eq for under lev 50.....i think maybe stuff under lev 50 should have a severe handicap as to the amount of enchant space it can have, and some downplaying on the damage and dam reductions they give.

If you do this though, you may have to tone down the difficulty level of some mobs for the sake of brand new players. OR revamp the leveling system. Instead of 5000exp per level, make it like other MMORPGs and make the amount you need per level grow as you get higher up. And perhaps some more bonuses upon leveling, so leveling has more of a point. If it weren't for the equipment you wear, every level you gain does you NO good at all except maybe a small increase in AR. What if it were so you wouldnt have to worry as much about your base stats and have to worry more about increasing your dam red and AR and Dam roll? Then people couldnt just pick up a super weapon and own everything, instead they'd have to work for their attack strength. the other stats should play more of a supporting role, as in less than the do now, so you dont need 50 strength to do damage and instead need to focus on ar and dam roll to up your attack.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:13 pm 
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To bad DL isnt a MMORPG.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:20 pm 
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i know its sarcasm but its not too bad at all, wheeeeeeeee

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:43 am 
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Dourht wrote:
To bad DL isnt a MMORPG.


I suppose i got the point way too late. DL isnt trying to be a run of the mill MMORPG. It needs to be different or it'd be same old same old. I just think there's some things we might be able to learn from them.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:47 am 
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I do powerlevel way too much.

Jugs: I do agree with your ideas on that.


Charm: I agree with that too. And the removal of subdue.


I do disagree with wiping out all crafted equipment below level 50...This would make the goal of the game to get to epic as fast as you can so you can craft and actually do stuff, thus increasing powerlevelling to get there faster.

If we were to do this crafted equipment thing and make epic areas, then I think we should change the levelling system a bit. Maybe instead of reaching 50 before you multiclass, maybe we should make it something lower like 25? Or even lower. But this would get difficult since just about EVERYTHING would have to get changed. Areas, Mobiles, Equipment...But it would make things a bit better if epic areas were to come in.

I know I really don't have room to talk, but we have sucked all the fun out of the game with all the cheating and stuff. It has made the game so unrealistic and no one roleplays anymore :/

I know I have never been one to roleplay very hard, but I think I'm going to start exploring and getting more into what the game was really about rather than just trying to outdo everyone. As should some of you...

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 2:32 pm 
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The idea has been bounced around many times to get rid of pre-epic levelling and it would be a good idea, if properly implemented.

As it stands, pre-epic levelling is what teaches players about the game, however, and unless we can make a large amount of newbie epic levels (which could be accomplished by changing current areas into epic levels), we would end up with a lower degree of competence in our playerbase.

If we were to do something like this, I would suggest having epic levelling work simultaneously with regular epiccing where e1-e50 would be levelling your first class, then either gain your second class right away or have to level to e100. This means that by e150, or a slightly later level, a character would have all of their classes.

In the current epic system, this would just breed more power levelling, but with the introduction of more epic levels, it provides for the possibilty of instantized areas that change depending on the level of the character.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:03 pm 
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[quote="Quintos"]we would end up with a lower degree of competence in our playerbase. quote]

i can do that easily

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 Post subject: This would slow powerleveling some.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:08 pm 
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A long time ago I suggested one change that would put the brakes on powerleveling, and make it take longer to level. Normaly I do not like to repeat myself, but this idea was on the old forum several years back.

When grouping, split the experience between members of the group. I see no reason why every member of a group should get the same experience as someone who killed it solo. I have seen groups large enough that not everyone can even get a hit on the mob before it is defeated. Yet they all get the same experience, no fair.

I have nothing against grouping as it allows players to take on tougher mobs than they could handle solo. But it also allows for very fast leveling. I belive this method would slow leveling, but still make grouping usefull for tough mobs, as the exp. that is being split is higher, and a group can still kill more mobs than a solo player in the same amount of time.

Arureal
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:42 pm 
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Arureal, while I see the reasoning behind the idea, it really only encourages players to solo. There are many players that could level as fast as one of the large groups you talk of if they equipped themselves to the best of their abilities. I would not be opposed to the idea of lowering the experience for groups, but not splitting it. Perhaps 80-90% experience or 75% for the group but 100% for whoever delivers the killing blow.

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